Re: [v6ops] Thoughts about wider operational input

["[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>]

Brian,
>  Others have mentioned the OPEX cost of diagnosing NAT-induced problems even with the enterprise.
As someone who has been involved with diagnosing problems on enterprise networks for 30+ years, I can tell you the complexity of finding and solving problems with IPv6, adds a huge new and glorious dimension to troubleshooting.
Don't get me wrong, I am a complete IPv6 proponent.  I am just saying that if ease of diagnostics is what you are looking for, IMHO, that is exactly the opposite of what is likely to happen.  
For example, take the scenario below:
- User is connecting via a home network routed through a broadband provider which supports both IPv4 and IPv6.  This home network uses a NAT.
Let's assume the user has the following IP addresses:
1. IPv6 Address. . . . . :2a02:c7d:500e:f900:f5:8404:5e0:430eGlobal Unicast IPv6 : routable over the Internet 
2. IPv6 Address. .   . . :fd4f:f7d8:2459:0:f5:8404:5e0:430eUnique Local Unicast (ULA) IPv6 :not routable over Internet
3. Temporary IPv6 Address:2a02:c7d:500e:f900:a53a:5a06:130b:a2ffPrivacy Global Unicast IPv6 :routable over the Internet 
4. Temporary IPv6 Address:fd4f:f7d8:2459:0:a53a:5a06:130b:a2ffPrivacy ULA IPv6 :not routable over the Internet 
5. Link-local IPv6 Address:fe80::f5:8404:5e0:430e%13Private Interface IPv6: not routable over the Internet 
6. IPv4 Address. . .  . . :192.168.0.6Site Local GUA IPv4 : not routable over the Internet 
The NAT has the external IPv4 address: 156.21.33.134 (IPv4 GUA: made up address)
Today, most enterprises do not have GUA or ULA IPv6 addresses but this will change in the next 5 years.  The above (other than the IPv4 NAT address) are real addresses from an IPConfig on my laptop on a network in the RIPE region. (This is an interesting use of ULAs, BTW.  Their DNS appears to work over ULA.)
So, if this user calls the network Help Desk of an enterprise and says "I have a problem connecting / with my application / with response time" and the Help Desk first wants to know the IP address the user has, this becomes quite interesting.  Which exact IP address are we talking about?  I have actually started a paper to allow enterprises to cope with this scenario, if anyone would like to help / make it into an Internet draft, please let me know.  I will actually start a new email thread with drafts I believe need to be written to help enterprises.
Now, before people start telling me to convert to an IPv6-only network and such like, please stop.   Enterprises move at a snails pace and they are very risk-averse.   I can guarantee you that talk like that will only get you completely not listened to.  
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
[phone] 

    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022, 09:06:46 PM PDT, Brian E Carpenter <[e-mail]> wrote:  
 
 > - What business problem does or can IPv6 solve better than existing IPv4?

That suggests to me that an even earlier question is:

  - What business problems does IPv4 cause today?

For example, I'm convinced that multiple layers of NAT44 (today's reality) cause problems, whose symptoms are often (from the end user's view) failed sessions that have to be repeated. These are *never* reported to any help desk and so don't appear in anybody's statistics - but they do detract from user experience and so presumably have an impact: lost or delayed 
business.

Others have mentioned the OPEX cost of diagnosing NAT-induced problems even with the enterprise.

What else?

Regards
    Brian Carpenter

On 30-Mar-22 16:22, Mark Smith wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022, 01:55 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ, <jordi.palet=[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> 
>    Hi Eduard,____
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    What I meant is that I will like to avoid the issues that NAT creates for apps. We must aim for something better.
> 
> This.
> 
> IPv6+NAT creates a lot of the issues that IPv4+NAT does, so why bother deploying IPv6 when you've already got the equivalent via IPv4 today?
> 
> 
> People need to understand why enterprises go to the expense of deploying technologies.
> 
> Technology is a means to an end, not the end itself. Technology in business either saves money or makes money for the business.
> 
> Enterprises in the 1990s didn't really deploy IPv4, they deployed global email and WWW access. Deploying IPv4 was the means to reaching those ends, because IPv4 underpinned them.
> 
> 
> So the questions to think about in the context of businesses and enterprises and IPv6 are:
> 
> - What business problem does or can IPv6 solve better than existing IPv4?
> 
> - IPv6 is the technology means to an end, so what is or are the ends that are of value to a business, where IPv6 is the better underpinning technology than IPv4 to reach those ends?
> 
> - How can deploying IPv6 save or make money for a business?
> 
> Regards,
> Mark.
> 
> 
> 
>    ____
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    On the other side, using an experimental protocol for production networks, in my opinion is a big “NO”.____
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    Regards,____
> 
>    Jordi____
> 
>    @jordipalet____
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    El 22/3/22, 13:04, "v6ops en nombre de Vasilenko Eduard" <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> en nombre de vasilenko.eduard=[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> escribió:____
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    Hi Jordi,____
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    I understand the desire to fix broken things. (I doubt it is possible)____
> 
>    But why NPT+ULA is not enough for MHMP now?____
> 
>    It is very similar to what Enterprises and small businesses have now.____
> 
>    They would be happy.____
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    Eduard____
> 
>    *From:*v6ops [mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>] *On Behalf Of *JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
>    *Sent:* Tuesday, March 22, 2022 12:34 PM
>    *To:* [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>    *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] Thoughts about wider operational input____
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    You’re right. Let’s say it in a different way, as may be my first email was not clear on this.____
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    __1.__I don’t think we want again to repeat the NAT problems, so NPT is not a valid solution for me.____
> 
>    __2.__I think in the future almost every site could want to be multihomed, in some cases “n” links active, many other cases just as a backup.____
> 
>    __3.__This means that renumbering is not (probably) a valid choice in any cases.____
> 
>    __4.__Can we make PI work in such “huge scale” scenario?____
> 
>    __5.__Can source-address forwarding work and solve all that, or we need that and/or something else.____
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    Only if we solve this, organizations could learn that NAT with IPv6 
is not the solution, but something better that provides the same results, 
and no need to have “private” addresses, because the way NAT is offering a “different” addressing inside and outside is not NAT per-se, but statefull firewalling.____
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    Regards,____
> 
>    Jordi____
> 
>    @jordipalet____
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    El 22/3/22, 10:27, "v6ops en nombre de Ted Lemon" <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> en nombre de [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> escribió:____
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    Is it really hncp that we needed here?  I think the key tech we need is source-address-based forwarding, and babel i think has delivered that. Granted, getting that into soho routers is a problem. ____
> 
>    __ __
> 
>    On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 10:11 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:____
> 
>        Maybe the terminology is not the most appropriate and we should 
talk about "organizations", because there are many types of networks that 
have the same problem and those are not enterprises (such as government sites, NGOs, etc.).
> 
>        The problem is the same regardless of the "size" of the organization. The difference is that "today" most SMEs don't have that problem because they don't have PI, but it may turn the same when they realize that not being PI have renumbering issues if changing the ISP. Of course, again, if we talk about a "small" SME, then may not be an issue, they only have 40 or 50 devices to renumber (your mileage will vary), not easy but not "terrible".
> 
>        On the rest of Gert comments, definitively I agree, and specially on our big mistake not working further on HNCP.
> 
>        Regards,
>        Jordi
>        @jordipalet
> 
> 
> 
>        El 22/3/22, 9:31, "v6ops en nombre de Gert Doering" <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> en nombre de [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> escribió:
> 
>              Hi,
> 
>              On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 11:42:12AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>              > I agree with Jordi that multihoming is a genuine impediment. What isn't generally realised is that it's a problem of scale when considering at least 10,000,000 enterprises, much more than it's 
a problem of IPv6 itself.
> 
>              What is "an enterprise"?
> 
>              My stance on this is that for "largely unmanaged 
SoHo networks" - which
>              could be called "small enterprise" - dual-enduser-ISP with dual-/48 or
>              NPT66 gets the job done in an easy and scalable way (HNCP would have
>              been great, but IETF politics killed it).
> 
>              "Enterprise that truly need their own independent fully managed network
>              with multiple ISP uplinks and fully routed independent address space"
>              are probably way less than 10 million...
> 
>              Half of them do not want Internet access anyway, 
just access to their
>              ALGs that will do the filtering and TLS inspection and everything, and
>              then out to the Internet as a new TCP session (= 
could be done with
>              DMZ islands of upstream-provider-allocated space 
just fine).
> 
> 
>              We need to work on our marketing regarding multihoming.  "What is it that
>              you get, what is the cost, which of the variants 
do you want, and why...?"
> 
>              Gert Doering
>                      -- NetMaster
>              --
>              have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
> 
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>              D-80807 Muenchen          
       HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
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> 
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