Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled

Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> Wed, 11 March 2020 16:10 UTC

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:10:17 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org>, "<ietf@ietf.org>" <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled
Message-ID: <20200311161017.GH13518@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
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On the radio a report said tests might be USD 3000 a pop if not ordered by a doctor for cause. 

AFAIK: You will never be able to get a clean bill of health
from one of todays test unless there is more knowledge and there are tests for
antibodies to show you're immune. Whether through prior infection or
immunization. Those tests are a long time away if they will ever exist.

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 11:49:46AM -0400, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> With the high false positive rate that has been reported for the test, if
> you test enough you will be shown to have the disease.
> And with the limited number of test kits available.  Consuming them when you
> could simply be home seems societally a bad choice.
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 3/11/2020 11:27 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> > Hi Mary,
> > 
> > That???s why I said being tested again if I travel, meet people, etc.
> > Right now, working from home, but next Sunday I will be traveling to
> > work for a customer for a week.
> > 
> > So yes, several test may be needed and I???m happy to pay for those.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Jordi
> > 
> > @jordipalet
> > 
> > El 11/3/20 16:07, "Mary B" <mary.h.barnes@gmail.com
> > <mailto:mary.h.barnes@gmail.com>> escribió:
> > 
> > Just one comment on your item #1 in your proposal.   Your body does not
> > immediately develop the antibodies upon exposure, so you can be a
> > carrier well before you'll test positive. You'd also selfishly be adding
> > to the burden on the system for testing.
> > 
> > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:26 AM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
> > <jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org
> > <mailto:40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> > 
> >     The only way to know the real situation in Italy is to get a
> >     confirmation from someone there, if we don't trust the news.
> > 
> >     I just watched TV news while having lunch and they confirmed the
> >     same I told before. You can move if you sign a certificate "on the
> >     spot" that your movement is for something needed and not "for fun"
> >     or for "relocate to other region in the country while this happens".
> > 
> >     Some countries, including Spain, cancelled all *direct* flights to
> >     Italy, but airports in Italy still work, so you could make an
> >     *indirect* flight.
> > 
> >     I've been asked to fill a form as part of the immigration process
> >     the last couple of weeks while traveling for work to a north African
> >     country. I think that's fair and reasonable.
> > 
> >     My motto is very simple, I need to fulfill my professional
> >     commitments, and I always do that even up-front my own personal
> >     things/needs.
> > 
> >     My customers will not care if my country decide to put me in
> >     quarantine in an indiscriminate way. If I don't fulfill my
> >     commitment, I will lose the contracts, the customers, will not be
> >     paid for what I'd already done, and probably, will need to pay some
> >     compensation, that easily can bring me to bankruptcy.
> > 
> >     I don't care if the government "promises" to compensate for this, is
> >     not right you never get all that compensated, and further, it is
> >     paid by all us. If some people from the government or any specific
> >     institution take such indiscriminate decision, they must cover the
> >     cost, not all the citizens.
> > 
> >     If I've a health problem, which still allows me to exercise my
> >     freedom to decide to keep working IF and only IF I'm not creating
> >     troubles to others, is my freedom and it is my personal decision
> >     despite any consequences that only affect myself. And I've been
> >     already in that situation a couple of times and I survived. If I
> >     don't survive, but luck, (I will not know it anymore), and meanwhile
> >     I did what it was my obligation to do and I was happy.
> > 
> >     I don't think the Italian government can take an action such as
> >     blocking indiscriminately the movements of all the citizens and
> >     residents. I think democratic countries, in general, have a
> >     Constitution that protects citizens against indiscriminate
> >     restrictions of freedom of movement.
> > 
> >     In the case of Spain, I believe that it will be unconstitutional
> >     (unless martial law is declared), and if this happens, I will fight
> >     against that. I've already fought in courts several times against
> >     Spanish government or public institutions, even in the
> >     Constitutional court, with some degree of success, some cases still
> >     open, some laws changed with my personal fight and unfortunately
> >     also some cases lost (but you also learnt from that).
> > 
> >     I'm not the kind of person that "bla bla bla" and then don't act. If
> >     there is a problem, whatever is it, take actions. We say in Spain
> >     (literal translation) "barking dog, little biter".
> > 
> >     So, in this situation if the Spanish government take such decision
> >     of restricting my freedom in an indiscriminate way, this is my plan
> >     (which I've sent to my lawyer this morning to make sure that it is
> >     right, but I think so):
> > 
> >     1) Get tested for Covid19 (even repeat it every week or after every
> >     trip if needed)
> >     2) Voluntarily avoid moving for "fun"
> >     3) Keep my normal professional activities, including attending
> >     customers, traveling or whatever is committed of course IF my test
> >     was "free of Covid19"
> >     4) If I'm free of Covid19, I will clearly disobey the
> >     government-imposed restriction of movement in order to fulfil my
> >     commitments
> >     5) If I'm arrested, which is a possibility, ask for an "habeas
> >     corpus", to be presented immediately to a judge, show him my
> >     "Covid19 test", to make sure that I'm released.
> >     6) Immediately sue the government for an illegal restriction of
> >     movement and arrest.
> > 
> >     No matter how much is the cost or consequences, fight against
> >     irrational and indiscriminate freedom restrictions. Again: IF and
> >     only IF, you're free from the Covid19, so never being able to affect
> >     others.
> > 
> >     I encourage everyone to do the same, to make sure that their rights
> >     aren't restricted. Nobody can restrict freedom in democratic
> >     countries in an indiscriminate way. Otherwise, what is the next
> >     reason governments will do it again?
> > 
> >     Regards,
> >     Jordi
> >     @jordipalet
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >     ???El 11/3/20 11:27, "ietf en nombre de Alexandre Petrescu"
> >     <ietf-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de
> >     alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>
> >     escribió:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >          Le 10/03/2020 à 22:24, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ a écrit :
> >          > The information that I've understood from the TV news and online
> >          > newspapers is that Italy is not "closed".
> >          >
> >          > If you sign a document showing that you're moving around for
> >     work,
> >          > they you are allowed to move. For fun not.
> >          >
> >          > Don't take my above sentence literally. Is my personal
> >     summary of how
> >          > they "close" the country. In fact it has been said that
> >     restricting
> >          > movement of people is against constitution unless the martial
> >     law is
> >          > declared, because the government could only impose that if
> >     doing an
> >          > analysis you have the virus, which for me, makes a lot of sense
> >          > then.
> > 
> >          Jordi, I think since you posted that particular situation of Italy
> >          closure might have changed for the worst.
> > 
> >          I can tell that France said initially that all routes waterways
> >     and
> >          airways open to Italy.  It then changed to some of them being
> >     closed
> >          (notably the airways).
> > 
> >          I can tell that in Romania it is said all ways closed to Italy.
> > 
> >          I can tell that other countries made similar statements in
> >     recent days,
> >          towards closure.
> > 
> >          I can also tell I understand the reasoning behind you mention
> >     when you
> >          say allowing only business travellers (no tourist).  It might
> >     be the
> >          case.  But in the end, I do not see why business travellers
> >     would be a
> >          different kind of humans, medically speaking.
> > 
> >          Alex
> > 
> >          >
> >          > Regards, Jordi @jordipalet
> >          >
> >          >
> >          >
> >          > ???El 10/3/20 21:36, "ietf en nombre de Rich Kulawiec"
> >          > <ietf-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org> en
> >     nombre de rsk@gsp.org <mailto:rsk@gsp.org>> escribió:
> >          >
> >          > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 08:29:56PM +0100, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
> >          > wrote:
> >          >> I really think it is a criminal wrong decision. We are just
> >     helping
> >          >> to spread the fear.
> >          >
> >          > No, it's a realistic decision.  A vaccine is likely a
> >     year-ish away
> >          > barring a serendipitous breakthrough.  Italy shut down the entire
> >          > country effective this morning.  US Universities and colleges are
> >          > sending their students home.  And so on -- because the only
> >     viable
> >          > method available for slowing the spread is social distancing.
> >          > COVID-19 will still propagate, but it will propagate more slowly,
> >          > flattening the demand curve for medical resources, including
> >          > personnel, hospital rooms, ICU space, etc. (And those of us
> >     in the US
> >          > had better hope that works because the current infection rate
> >          > projections look ominous circa March 20 and the testing rate is
> >          > orders of magnitude below where it needs to be..)
> >          >
> >          > Everything done before a pandemic looks like too much, everything
> >          > done after it hits looks like too little.
> >          >
> >          > ---rsk
> >          >
> >          >
> >          >
> >          >
> >          >
> >          > ********************************************** IPv4 is over
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> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >     **********************************************
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> > 
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> >     use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty
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> > 
> > 
> > **********************************************
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> > 
> > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or
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> > attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal
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> > 

-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de