RE: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled

Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com> Wed, 11 March 2020 15:56 UTC

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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled
Thread-Topic: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 15:56:15 +0000
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I live in the North of Italy, hospitals are close to the collapse.

Mortality is fairly low provided that all the infected people have access to intensive care...but we're running out of beds in intensive care. Entire hospitals have been confiscated by the governors of the regions and totally dedicated to Covid patients. (this is one of the very few cases in which I'm proud of how Italy is reacting to a problem).
Doctors are in a condition in which they start to decide who can have access to intensive care and need to put a bar. (which according to rumors is going down to 60 years...if you're older and/or suffer from other diseases...good luck !).
Mortality is close to double digits.

Yes, you can sign a certificate to declare that you need to move for 3 reasons: important working reasons, particular needs (buying goods or going to the pharmacy), health needs.
A conference is NOT an important working reason, it's not a matter of life or death...in fact conferences are prohibited on the entire Italian soil, as well as any type of sport, public events, ceremonies (including wedding and funerals), big malls, museums, cinemas, libraries and schools are closed.

Italy is the country that is executing the highest number of tests and it's not possible to test everyone. I have friends which are doctors and would like to be tested before going back to the trench, but it's impossible to test all of them...worthless to say that it's impossible and meaningless to test a bunch of engineers that can't meet virtually in 2020.

In Italy it's happening that same thing that happened in China with 2-3 weeks of delay. The rest of Europe has 2-3 weeks of advantage to learn the lesson and not under evaluate the risks...don't waste them! 
We all should be thankful to China for implementing so aggressive counter measures to slow down the virus (which is working) and not complain about a small limitation of own rights...this is saving tens of thousands of lives.
 
Daniele  

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
Sent: den 11 mars 2020 15:25
To: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled

The only way to know the real situation in Italy is to get a confirmation from someone there, if we don't trust the news.

I just watched TV news while having lunch and they confirmed the same I told before. You can move if you sign a certificate "on the spot" that your movement is for something needed and not "for fun" or for "relocate to other region in the country while this happens".

Some countries, including Spain, cancelled all *direct* flights to Italy, but airports in Italy still work, so you could make an *indirect* flight.

I've been asked to fill a form as part of the immigration process the last couple of weeks while traveling for work to a north African country. I think that's fair and reasonable.

My motto is very simple, I need to fulfill my professional commitments, and I always do that even up-front my own personal things/needs.

My customers will not care if my country decide to put me in quarantine in an indiscriminate way. If I don't fulfill my commitment, I will lose the contracts, the customers, will not be paid for what I'd already done, and probably, will need to pay some compensation, that easily can bring me to bankruptcy.

I don't care if the government "promises" to compensate for this, is not right you never get all that compensated, and further, it is paid by all us. If some people from the government or any specific institution take such indiscriminate decision, they must cover the cost, not all the citizens.

If I've a health problem, which still allows me to exercise my freedom to decide to keep working IF and only IF I'm not creating troubles to others, is my freedom and it is my personal decision despite any consequences that only affect myself. And I've been already in that situation a couple of times and I survived. If I don't survive, but luck, (I will not know it anymore), and meanwhile I did what it was my obligation to do and I was happy.

I don't think the Italian government can take an action such as blocking indiscriminately the movements of all the citizens and residents. I think democratic countries, in general, have a Constitution that protects citizens against indiscriminate restrictions of freedom of movement.

In the case of Spain, I believe that it will be unconstitutional (unless martial law is declared), and if this happens, I will fight against that. I've already fought in courts several times against Spanish government or public institutions, even in the Constitutional court, with some degree of success, some cases still open, some laws changed with my personal fight and unfortunately also some cases lost (but you also learnt from that).

I'm not the kind of person that "bla bla bla" and then don't act. If there is a problem, whatever is it, take actions. We say in Spain (literal translation) "barking dog, little biter".

So, in this situation if the Spanish government take such decision of restricting my freedom in an indiscriminate way, this is my plan (which I've sent to my lawyer this morning to make sure that it is right, but I think so):

1) Get tested for Covid19 (even repeat it every week or after every trip if needed)
2) Voluntarily avoid moving for "fun"
3) Keep my normal professional activities, including attending customers, traveling or whatever is committed of course IF my test was "free of Covid19"
4) If I'm free of Covid19, I will clearly disobey the government-imposed restriction of movement in order to fulfil my commitments
5) If I'm arrested, which is a possibility, ask for an "habeas corpus", to be presented immediately to a judge, show him my "Covid19 test", to make sure that I'm released.
6) Immediately sue the government for an illegal restriction of movement and arrest.

No matter how much is the cost or consequences, fight against irrational and indiscriminate freedom restrictions. Again: IF and only IF, you're free from the Covid19, so never being able to affect others.

I encourage everyone to do the same, to make sure that their rights aren't restricted. Nobody can restrict freedom in democratic countries in an indiscriminate way. Otherwise, what is the next reason governments will do it again?

Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
 
 

El 11/3/20 11:27, "ietf en nombre de Alexandre Petrescu" <ietf-bounces@ietf.org en nombre de alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> escribió:

    
    
    Le 10/03/2020 à 22:24, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ a écrit :
    > The information that I've understood from the TV news and online
    > newspapers is that Italy is not "closed".
    > 
    > If you sign a document showing that you're moving around for work,
    > they you are allowed to move. For fun not.
    > 
    > Don't take my above sentence literally. Is my personal summary of how
    > they "close" the country. In fact it has been said that restricting
    > movement of people is against constitution unless the martial law is
    > declared, because the government could only impose that if doing an
    > analysis you have the virus, which for me, makes a lot of sense
    > then.
    
    Jordi, I think since you posted that particular situation of Italy 
    closure might have changed for the worst.
    
    I can tell that France said initially that all routes waterways and 
    airways open to Italy.  It then changed to some of them being closed 
    (notably the airways).
    
    I can tell that in Romania it is said all ways closed to Italy.
    
    I can tell that other countries made similar statements in recent days, 
    towards closure.
    
    I can also tell I understand the reasoning behind you mention when you 
    say allowing only business travellers (no tourist).  It might be the 
    case.  But in the end, I do not see why business travellers would be a 
    different kind of humans, medically speaking.
    
    Alex
    
    > 
    > Regards, Jordi @jordipalet
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > El 10/3/20 21:36, "ietf en nombre de Rich Kulawiec"
    > <ietf-bounces@ietf.org en nombre de rsk@gsp.org> escribió:
    > 
    > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 08:29:56PM +0100, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
    > wrote:
    >> I really think it is a criminal wrong decision. We are just helping
    >> to spread the fear.
    > 
    > No, it's a realistic decision.  A vaccine is likely a year-ish away 
    > barring a serendipitous breakthrough.  Italy shut down the entire
    > country effective this morning.  US Universities and colleges are
    > sending their students home.  And so on -- because the only viable
    > method available for slowing the spread is social distancing.
    > COVID-19 will still propagate, but it will propagate more slowly,
    > flattening the demand curve for medical resources, including
    > personnel, hospital rooms, ICU space, etc. (And those of us in the US
    > had better hope that works because the current infection rate
    > projections look ominous circa March 20 and the testing rate is
    > orders of magnitude below where it needs to be.)
    > 
    > Everything done before a pandemic looks like too much, everything
    > done after it hits looks like too little.
    > 
    > ---rsk
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > 
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