Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Wed, 11 March 2020 04:50 UTC
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 00:50:04 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: "Livingood, Jason" <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com>
cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled
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--On Wednesday, March 11, 2020 00:22 +0000 "Livingood, Jason" <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: > On 3/10/20, 5:55 PM, "ietf on behalf of Bob Hinden" > <ietf-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of bob.hinden@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Kudos to the IESG and IRTF chair for making this difficult >> decision. > > +1 > I know the community appreciates that this decision was taken > rationally, after assessing data from all the working groups > and research groups, and via a consensus-based process in the > IESG and IRTF. This is, as always, the sort of process & > approach that sets this community apart from other SDOs. :-) Jason, I beg to differ and we will sooner or later have another situation in which the difference is important (there have been at least a few in the past). What sets this community apart from other SDOs is that we make most decisions by consensus-based processes in the community and with full community involvement. The role of the IESG has traditionally (since Kobe and POISED at least) to interpret and verify (i.e., "call" or "declare") community consensus. RFC 2028 Section 3.5 talks about the IESG as "administering" the standards process, not deciding, based on its collective wisdom, what is to be a standard. As a more recent example see language such as "we strive to make our decisions by the consent of all participants" in RFC 7282. Any number of other standards bodies select leadership bodies (by one means or another) who then make decisions _for_ those standards bodies. They may do that by unanimous consent (a very strong version of consensus), by voting, by discussion and agreement within that leadership body that is indistinguishable from our definition of rough consensus, or by the sorts of compromises that RFC 7282 abhors. But they make the decisions and they are the final authority. In the IETF, it is the community itself that forms the consensus and is the final authority, and it is that which makes us different. In that sense, the way this decision was made --by consensus _within_ the IESG and with the IRTF Chair -- is not what we traditionally do and what sets us apart; it is an aberration. It is, however, an aberration that exhibits something else that distinguishes us from those other SDOs. While it is not, to my recollection, explicit in any of our procedural documents, we often put Doing The Right Thing ahead of nitpicking adherence to the details of procedures. In this case, I believe that, in gathering information the way it did, discussing issues internally and with the IRTF Chair, and then reaching internal consensus and making a decision, the IESG Did The Right Thing whether one agrees with their conclusion or not (I do agree, but that is not important in this context). Most of the alternatives with far more early community involvement would have been catastrophic (or at least would have had us still debating whether or not to hold a meeting in March 2020 during May of 2020). But, if we were to end up confusing the IESG making decisions that way with an IETF consensus process, we not only would not be different enough from those other SDOs for the difference to matter, but we would be in serious trouble indeed. best, john
- IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled The IESG
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Salz, Rich
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Michael StJohns
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Kyle Rose
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Eric Rescorla
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Stephen Farrell
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Alissa Cooper
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Toerless Eckert
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Salz, Rich
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Salz, Rich
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Mary B
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Michael StJohns
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Jari Arkko
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Michael StJohns
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Adam Roach
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled otroan
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Stewart Bryant
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Cullen Jennings
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Carlos M. Martinez
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Salz, Rich
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Salz, Rich
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Vittorio Bertola
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Alissa Cooper
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Keith Moore
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Rich Kulawiec
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Job Snijders
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Lou Berger
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Joel M. Halpern
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Paul Wouters
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Victor Kuarsingh
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Fred Baker
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Melchior Aelmans
- AW: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled N.Leymann
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Christian Hopps
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Salz, Rich
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Soininen, Jonne (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Randy Bush
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Bob Hinden
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled John C Klensin
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Scott O. Bradner
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Khaled Omar
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Livingood, Jason
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Scott O. Bradner
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled John Levine
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled John Levine
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Jay Daley
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled George Michaelson
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Terry Manderson
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Salz, Rich
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Fernando Gont
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled John C Klensin
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Benoit Claise
- In person versus virtual? Eliot Lear
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Tim Chown
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled tom petch
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Nick Hilliard
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Tim Chown
- Re: In person versus virtual? Tim Chown
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Christian
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Vittorio Bertola
- Re: In person versus virtual? Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Leif Johansson
- Re: In person versus virtual? Christian Hopps
- Re: In person versus virtual? Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Alexandre Petrescu
- Air Canada, was Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person … Paul Wouters
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Fernando Gont
- RE: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Khaled Omar
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Mary B
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Adam Roach
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Theodore Y. Ts'o
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Khaled Omar
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Robert Raszuk
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Joel M. Halpern
- RE: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Daniele Ceccarelli
- Re: Madrid Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Mary B
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Toerless Eckert
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Nick Hilliard
- RE: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Jay Daley
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Fernando Gont
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Michael StJohns
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Robert Raszuk
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Jay Daley
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Robert Raszuk
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Stan Kalisch
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled S Moonesamy
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Carsten Bormann
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Michael Breuer
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: Air Canada, was Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Per… Roni Even (A)
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled S Moonesamy
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Fernando Gont
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Adam Roach
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Rich Kulawiec
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Theodore Y. Ts'o
- IETF 108 (i.e. "models to combat the ... the viru… Joseph Potvin
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Ross Finlayson
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Tim Bray
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Keith Moore
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled Nico Williams