Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled

"Scott O. Bradner" <sob@sobco.com> Wed, 11 March 2020 00:40 UTC

Return-Path: <sob@sobco.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5914A3A0C9C for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 17:40:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.106
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.106 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ChLcdLuIAQHt for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 17:40:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sobco.sobco.com (unknown [136.248.127.164]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2271A3A0CA8 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 17:40:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sobco.sobco.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277A42F80B56; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 20:40:05 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sobco.com
Received: from sobco.sobco.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (sobco.sobco.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yYesYMQend3y; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 20:40:01 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from golem.sobco.com (golem.sobco.com [136.248.127.162]) by sobco.sobco.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0CAB12F80B39; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 20:40:01 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\))
Subject: Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled
From: "Scott O. Bradner" <sob@sobco.com>
In-Reply-To: <12801E94-9730-44FD-B1CA-8B054F797587@consulintel.es>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 20:40:00 -0400
Cc: IETF Rinse Repeat <ietf@ietf.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <1D80F57E-9AB3-4E21-8107-4374ED84834E@sobco.com>
References: <158386742797.16091.1025684270011519738@ietfa.amsl.com> <7D26D5BD-FD39-47D1-81D5-73D7BFCF09F8@consulintel.es> =?utf-8?q?=3CFRXPR01M?= =?utf-8?q?B064510B3CC63EBBDFD33B5E498FF0=40FRXPR01MB0645=2EDEUPRD01=2EPROD?= =?utf-8?q?=2EOUTLOOK=2EDE=3E?= <E124B52F-638D-4843-A0F9-0F518716C5C7@consulintel.es> <985D1867-2160-4050-BD15-B4C97FF47318@sobco.com> <12801E94-9730-44FD-B1CA-8B054F797587@consulintel.es>
To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/INY_Cq2av5j71OMw5ytGVjVraA8>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 00:40:09 -0000

If indeed the refusal to pay was because "it was cancelled because *exclusive decision of the organizers*, like the IETF” then the refusal is entirely due to the language in the insurance contract - if one pays enough the insurance company will  cover cases where the organizer cancels a meeting because of widespread panic even if the local government has not blocked the meeting - but if you do not want to pay that much they you get less

Scott

> On Mar 10, 2020, at 7:15 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Scott,
> 
> I'm not a lawyer, but I've checked with them, and I recall that this was exactly the same situation that a month ago occurred when the Mobile congress was cancelled. The insurance denied paying because they cancelled even if there was not a "force major" declared by the government and the organization said that the cost of all the compensations will be around 450 million euros at a minimum. The organizers are also an US company, I think?
> 
> I think you're right and maybe the use of "force major" is not good here, and it was only the way the Mobile congress organization "described why the insurance doesn't want to pay". Said in a different way: it was cancelled because *exclusive decision of the organizers*, like the IETF.
> 
> I think that the laws that apply will be from each participant, but I may be wrong. If I decide to sue an event organizer, I will go to the courts in my jurisdiction.
> 
> Note that I've not said that I'm going to sue IETF, but I think we must be aware that anyone could take that path.
> 
> 
> 
> El 10/3/20 23:28, "Scott O. Bradner" <sob@sobco.com> escribió:
> 
>    can you point to the specific laws - particularly in the US (where the IETF LLC is based) and Canada (where the event was to be)
> 
> 
>    imo - insurance coverage is based on the conditions in the insurance contract not some general laws
>    in addition, my understanding is the reverse as far as  force majeure is concerned - force majeure tends to cancel insurance
>    (there is a court case right now where an insurance company is claiming they should not have to cover hacking
>    of a major company because they claim it was an act of war bu the North Koreans
> 
>    e.g. 
>    "Force majeure refers to a clause that is included in contracts to remove liability for natural and unavoidable catastrophes that interrupt the expected course of events and restrict participants from fulfilling obligations.” 
>    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/forcemajeure.asp
> 
>    Scott
> 
> 
>> On Mar 10, 2020, at 6:20 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Because law says that if there is no force major, insurance will not cover it and at the same time the event organizer is liable? Is not that a good reason?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> El 10/3/20 22:11, "ietf-bounces@ietf.org en nombre de N.Leymann@telekom.de" <ietf-bounces@ietf.org en nombre de N.Leymann@telekom.de> escribió:
>> 
>>   Hi,
>> 
>>   why should the IETF cover this? You are participating and booking as an individual. If you booked the hotel within one of the IETF blocks IETF will probably try to negotiate with the hotels for the flight you are on your own.
>> 
>>   For the future - if you book from your own pocket - it might be a good idea to cover the bookings with a travel insurance (many credit cards come with a travel insurance anyway - check with the credit company).
>> 
>>   Regards
>> 
>>   Nic
>> 
>>   -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>   Von: ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org> Im Auftrag von JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
>>   Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. März 2020 20:15
>>   An: iesg@ietf.org; IETF Announcement List <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
>>   Cc: irtf-announce@irtf.org; ietf@ietf.org; 107all@ietf.org
>>   Betreff: Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled
>> 
>>   I don't think this is right.
>> 
>>   Not having an official ban from the Canada authorities makes impossible to get a refund for:
>> 
>>   1) Flight
>>   2) Hotel
>> 
>>   So, for those that have paid that from their own pocket, in advance, to make it cheaper, is the IETF insurance going to cover that?
>> 
>>   Regards,
>>   Jordi
>>   @jordipalet
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>   El 10/3/20 20:11, "IETF-Announce en nombre de The IESG" <ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org en nombre de iesg@ietf.org> escribió:
>> 
>>       The IESG and the IRTF Chair have decided to cancel the in-person IETF 107 Vancouver meeting. This decision is based on input we gathered from Working Group (WG) and Research Group (RG) chairs about our ability to hold productive WG and RG sessions at IETF 107. Our assessment of this feedback is that a majority of sessions would not be viable if we were to hold the in-person IETF meeting. On this basis, we believe we cannot hold an effective in-person meeting. 
>> 
>>       As a result of this cancellation, the in-person Hackathon, Code Sprint, all other in-person events planned for the weekend of March 21-22, the chairs training scheduled for March 20, and all other in-person sessions during the week are cancelled.
>> 
>>       The IESG is working on an alternative all-virtual agenda for the week of March 21-27 with a limited schedule adapted to accommodate the time zones of as many participants as possible. We are also planning to support an increased volume of virtual interim meetings during the weeks that follow.. We will send another update to the community soon with more information about these plans. The Hackathon organizers are also considering plans for virtual Hackathon support.
>> 
>>       We have re-opened Internet-Draft submissions, which had been closed on March 9 in anticipation of the in-person meeting. Internet-Drafts may be submitted at <https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/>.
>> 
>>       A separate announcement from the IETF Executive Director will follow with details about registration cancellations and refunds.  
>> 
>>       These are unusual times given the circumstances created by the spread of COVID-19.  We hope that everyone remains safe and healthy.
>> 
>>       Regards,
>>       The IESG and the IRTF Chair
>> 
>>       _______________________________________________
>>       IETF-Announce mailing list
>>       IETF-Announce@ietf.org
>>       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>   **********************************************
>>   IPv4 is over
>>   Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>>   http://www.theipv6company.com
>>   The IPv6 Company
>> 
>>   This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> **********************************************
>> IPv4 is over
>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>> http://www.theipv6company.com
>> The IPv6 Company
>> 
>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.theipv6company.com
> The IPv6 Company
> 
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
> 
> 
>