Re: IETF 107 Vancouver In-Person Meeting Cancelled

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[e-mail]>]

Hi John,

I'm not saying is not a difficult decision and I fully understand it, but at the same time we need to see figures, for example, how much is costing the cancellation, is the insurance covering it or not, etc.

As said before, sometimes small groups can make more progress and work better than bigger ones.

So, I don't really agree that having the meeting is non-productive.

I recall when we were discussing the first versions of venue-selection-criteria (2005-2006), I was also trying to include insurance for these contingencies and I was called crazy (more or less):

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-ietf-meeting-venue-selection-criteria-04

...
   should also include a clear statement regarding the situation in case
   of cancellation (for instance, attendee costs versus committed costs
   with the host/hotel, retention of meeting fees).

   An evaluation of war and terrorism risks and countermeasures is also
   required.  The location should have no exceptional security
   considerations on this regard.

   Appropriate insurance should be investigated for IETF meetings.

   Adequate contingency plans should be available for those risks.

Interesting that even if I was not talking about "virus fear", I was having a crystal ball ...


Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
 
 

El 10/3/20 23:07, "ietf en nombre de John C Klensin" <[e-mail] en nombre de [e-mail]> escribió:

    Jordi,
    
    Others have commented on other aspects of the situation, but I
    want to ask a different sort of question to understand where you
    are coming from (and very much from the perspective of someone
    who has self-funded attendance to many IETF meeting).    The
    IESG, in consultation with the IRTF Chair and after surveying WG
    Chairs, has concluded that, were the meeting held, it would be
    very unlikely to be productive and effective.   We second-guess
    at lot of decisions around here, some of them for good reason,
    but I see absolutely no basis for questioning the IESG's
    conclusion about that especially because, given trends around
    the world, there is reason to believe that attendance would go
    down relative to current, registration-based estimates, from now.
    
    So, even if hotel and air costs are sunk costs whether you fly
    to Vancouver or not (and others have suggested that at least a
    significant portion of them should not be and that rules that
    are in place today are likely to be relaxed), assume the IESG's
    conclusion about productivity and effectiveness was correct but
    they decided to hold the meeting anyway.  That would give you
    the opportunity to spend the airline and hotel money, fly to
    Vancouver, spend more on onsite expenses there, and participate
    in a non-productive and ineffective meeting.  I can't see a
    reason why you (or anyone else) would want to do that.  Seems to
    me it would be better to stay home, try to make remote
    participation as effective as possible, save the marginal costs
    of being in Vancouver for at week and the personal wear and tear
    of airports and airlines (even if personal concerns about
    infection are ignored), and move forward (again, even if you had
    to write off expenditures already made).
    
    What am I missing?
    
    best,
       john
    
    
    --On Tuesday, March 10, 2020 22:29 +0100 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
    <jordi.palet=[e-mail]> wrote:
    
    > I understand that, but what we don't realize is that it is
    > the same for a flu. Some people pass away with that, and
    > vaccines are not a 100% secure option.
    > 
    >  
    > 
    > And people that is feeling well but has a flu, still go to
    > work and conferences and so on.
    > 
    >  
    > 
    > I still believe that we only help to increase the fear. If we
    > ask for participants to bring a test to be able to
    > participate, then I agree, but not this way (read my previous
    > email about the "Italian closure")..
    > 
    >  
    > 
    > Regards,
    > 
    > Jordi
    > 
    > @jordipalet
    > 
    >  
    > 
    >  
    > 
    >  
    > 
    > El 10/3/20 21:33, "ietf en nombre de Olivier MJ
    > Crépin-Leblond" <[e-mail] en nombre de
    > [e-mail]> escribió:
    > 
    >  
    > 
    > I think you are missing the point. And I can say that because
    > as late as a couple of weeks ago, I was missing the point too.
    > As more and more countries are entering the tunnel of fear
    > caused by Covid-19, one pattern that is emerging is the
    > exponential growth of affected people. So 3 days ago you might
    > have been in a country with very few cases, and then it all
    > blows out of proportion at an alarming rate. The root reason
    > of this, is that it appears that healthy segments of the
    > population might feel very light unease, like having light
    > flu-like symptoms, a slight headache, a persistent cough,
    > nothing to worry about really. Many people who got tested
    > positive went around their business for a number of days
    > because they did not really feel ill. And indeed the
    > overwhelming number of people catching this virus will sail
    > through it in a few days with no lasting effects whatsoever.
    > But they will act as carriers, vectors for spreading the virus
    > further and this is where there is a big problem: a certain
    > segment of the population appears to be particularly affected,
    > particularly senior citizens and those with an already
    > existing pathology, however mild that might be. The question
    > we should be asking ourselves is: do we want to be vectors for
    > transmitting the virus and pass it on to some people who might
    > end up in critical condition from it? Through the cancellation
    > of now 5 meetings that I was supposed to attend in March and
    > April, I have already personally lost a lot of money. I hate
    > it. Some hotels and airlines are now only starting to be ready
    > to give me (partial) refunds under conditions, or change the
    > dates of travel, but my losses for the time being are still
    > real. My business is also suffering as I consciously know that
    > we are heading for drastic confinement measures like that
    > which were needed in countries that were affected so far - and
    > watch as the week goes by how quickly things are happening.
    > There is now mass cancellation of large gatherings and whilst
    > I laughed about it and was quite upset about cancellations a
    > couple of weeks ago, I now think it's the right thing. The
    > sooner we stop the spread of Covid-19 the sooner we can go
    > back to business. Whatever it takes. Kindest regards,
    > 
    > Olivier
    > 
    > On 10/03/2020 20:57, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
    > 
    > Exactly! With this decision we just spread fear.
    > 
    >  
    > 
    > A total no-sense unless really Canada ban the meetings (and
    > that will allow those that pre-paid NON-REFUNDABLE rates for
    > hotels and flights, get it refunded).
    > 
    >  
    > 
    > Regards,
    > 
    > Jordi
    > 
    > @jordipalet
    > 
    >  
    > 
    >  
    > 
    >  
    > 
    > El 10/3/20 20:46, "ietf en nombre de Mary B"
    > <[e-mail] en nombre de [e-mail]>
    > escribió:
    > 
    >  
    > 
    > I think he stated his point very clearly - there is a broad
    > range of risk perceptions about COVID-19.  I was all for
    > hopping on a plane and going to Vancouver.  Actually, if I was
    > gonna get sick, Vancouver is probably a much better place with
    > better healthcare than the US.  
    > 
    >  
    > 
    > The worry and fear is just increasing people risks of getting
    > sick on the off chance they are exposed.  Stress suppresses
    > immune function. Of course, cookies and sodas do that as well. 
    > 
    >  
    > 
    > Regards,
    > 
    > Mary. 
    > 
    >  
    > 
    > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 2:43 PM Salz, Rich
    > <rsalz=[e-mail]..org> wrote:
    > 
    > 
    >>    Agreed. I can also understand why the decision took until
    >     now. Different people's risk perceptions differ so I'm
    >     sure others will quite reasonably disagree with me on
    >     this, but with all the behind-the-scenes stuff that had
    >     to be considered, in addition to the ongoing (and many
    >     v. recent) changes people's travel plans, I do totally
    >     get why it took 'till today to make the call.
    > 
    > Good.  Share it with the rest of us.
    > 
    > 
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