Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> Wed, 25 May 2016 21:50 UTC
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 17:44:26 -0400
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Subject: Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
To: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com>
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On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 4:44 PM, Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com> wrote: > On 5/25/16 12:36 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > >> It's probably easier to enumerate who's excluded than who's included: >> > > No, it's still not really working. > > Would we, for example, be willing to meet in a place that > criminalizes Muslims or Jews or Hindus? I sincerely hope not, > and I don't think that we would. > I think you are right. But we routinely have meetings in a country that forces Sikhs to be humiliated in the process of entering. I've never heard anybody object to that. I suppose it would provide some small personal assurance if the IETF, > in fact, would meet in such a place and the issue here is not that > people here are comfortable excluding GLBT people as a class. (I'd > skip that meeting, too, for whatever it's worth). To speak personally about my feelings on this, since you've brought up who is comfortable with what, I am not comfortable with excluding LGBT participants who can't attend because they are at risk of prosecution. I'm not even comfortable with LGBT participants having to evaluate whether to risk breaking the law should they attend. I'm not arguing about this because arguing about it is comfortable for me, nor because I would be comfortable with an outcome where you would not feel comfortable coming to a specific IETF meeting. The reason I'm challenging you on this is that I don't think there are any IETF attendees who would be at risk of prosecution, no matter what consensual behavior they engage in in the privacy of their hotel rooms. So if we were to decide not to go to Singapore, it would not be because anybody was excluded as a matter of some practical risk that they would face if they attended, but because of a matter of principle. I think the principle is important; I don't want to minimize that. But let us be clear: it really is a matter of principle. And it's not easy for me to see how that specific matter of principle trumps the actual hardship that will occur for numerous IETF attendees who come to the U.S., and also those who are unable to do so, _in addition_ to the rather egregious matter of principle that is our current border policy, which has, as I mentioned earlier, resulted in actual people actually being beaten and jailed fairly recently. People who share our general level of economic privilege, I might add, so that, despite having the degree of privilege required merely to attend an IETF in person, they still would be at risk. Michael wrote: > US citizens from California who bring their same sex partner along to wrangle > the baby do not have to cross a border to enter Texas or Alabama or Utah or.. What about foreign citizens flying in to Dallas/Fort Worth, or into Atlanta?
- IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and … IAOC Chair
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michal Krsek
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michal Krsek
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Brian E Carpenter
- IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and … Richard Barnes
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Lixia Zhang
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John Levine
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Loa Andersson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Andrew Allen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… l.wood
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… lloyd.wood
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Allison Mankin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Harish Pillay
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Harish Pillay
- RE: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John E Drake
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Randy Bush
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Sam Hartman
- RE: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Christian Huitema
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- build personal contacts outside of meetings [was … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Randall Gellens
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… lloyd.wood
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… lloyd.wood
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Sandoche Balakrichenan
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Richard Barnes
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: Havana and Juggalos (was: IETF 100, Singapore… Theodore V Faber
- Re: Havana and Juggalos (was: IETF 100, Singapore… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Jari Arkko
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and … Barry Raveendran Greene
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Barry Raveendran Greene
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … John Levine
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Barry Raveendran Greene
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- RE: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Andrew Allen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Sandoche Balakrichenan
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Dave Crocker
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Patrick McManus
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael StJohns
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Margaret Cullen
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Michael StJohns
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Hardie
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Hardie
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Adam Roach
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Michal Krsek
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Cullen Jennings
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Paul Wouters
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Cullen Jennings
- RE: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Donald Eastlake
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Eliot Lear
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Cullen Jennings
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Eliot Lear
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Sandoche Balakrichenan
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John Hoe
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Michael StJohns
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Livingood, Jason
- IAOC response to question of clarification Re: [R… Leslie Daigle
- Re: IAOC response to question of clarification Re… Ted Hardie