Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input

[Yoav Nir <[e-mail]>]

You do realize that (1) includes most EU countries?

Anyway, (2) would exclude me and about a dozen of our regulars. Gun ownership by citizens does not exclude anyone. Failure by a state to recognize my sister’s marriage does not exclude her from traveling there if that was necessary for her work. 

I do not doubt that it sucks to be a gay or bisexual male living in Singapore. Spending a week there for work should be fine.


> On 24 May 2016, at 7:18 PM, Adam Roach <[e-mail]> wrote:
> 
> This shouldn't be that hard to think about. Would you have a greater objection to the IETF selecting (1) a locale that allows private citizen ownership of guns or (2) a country that refuses to recognize Israeli passports?
> 
> /a
> 
> On 5/24/16 09:37, Yoav Nir wrote:
>> And does that mean it should count more?  Less?
>> 
>>> On 24 May 2016, at 5:33 PM, Adam Roach <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>> 
>>> One of the things on your list is completely unlike the others.
>>> 
>>> #1, #2, #3, #4, and #6 affect everyone equally.
>>> 
>>> #5 does not.
>>> 
>>> That's pretty fundamental to this discussion.
>>> 
>>> /a
>>> 
>>> On 5/24/16 09:28, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
>>>> Do we really want to debate this now and in this list?
>>>> 
>>>> My suggestion was looking into “hopefully” we don’t start that way with the first case Singapore, because then I will must take all the points in the “Topics” section of the web site you suggested.
>>>> 
>>>> Just to name a few (not in any particular order), which are relevant to countries that we visited already, and some that we visit often:
>>>> 
>>>> 1) Freedom of Speech
>>>> 2) Death penalty
>>>> 3) Torture
>>>> 4) Justice
>>>> 5) LGBT rights
>>>> 6) Free use of guns
>>>> 
>>>> As said, if we go that way, we will end up in reducing to the half the number of possible countries from the ones we have already been.
>>>> 
>>>> Saludos,
>>>> Jordi
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>>>> De: Eric Rescorla <[e-mail]>
>>>> Responder a: <[e-mail]>
>>>> Fecha: martes, 24 de mayo de 2016, 16:18
>>>> Para: Jordi Palet Martinez <[e-mail]>
>>>> CC: IETF discussion list <[e-mail]>
>>>> Asunto: Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
>>>> 
>>>>> It seems like generally most countries have some human rights issues to complain about. Could you please indicate which countries we would be free to visit under your proposed rule?
>>>>> -Ekr
>>>>> 
>>>>> P.S. You might find https://www.hrw.org/ useful here.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 6:50 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> In the context:
>>>>> 
>>>>> “IF” we decide not to go to Singapore, then we must avoid going to ANY country that is against human rights, including death penalty.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Saludos,
>>>>> Jordi
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>>>>> De: Eric Rescorla <[e-mail]>
>>>>> Responder a: <[e-mail]>
>>>>> Fecha: martes, 24 de mayo de 2016, 15:46
>>>>> Para: Jordi Palet Martinez <[e-mail]>
>>>>> CC: IETF discussion list <[e-mail]>
>>>>> Asunto: Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 5:25 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I will go further:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>      The same must apply for any country where death penalty is still applied.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So I take it you oppose meeting in Singapore?
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapore
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -Ekr
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Saludos,
>>>>>> Jordi
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>>>>>> De: ietf <[e-mail]> en nombre de Jordi Palet Martinez <[e-mail]>
>>>>>> Responder a: Jordi Palet Martinez <[e-mail]>
>>>>>> Fecha: martes, 24 de mayo de 2016, 14:22
>>>>>> Para: <[e-mail]>
>>>>>> Asunto: Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Saludos,
>>>>>>> Jordi
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>>>>>>> De: ietf <[e-mail]> en nombre de Mikael Abrahamsson <[e-mail]>
>>>>>>> Organización: People's Front Against WWW
>>>>>>> Responder a: <[e-mail]>
>>>>>>> Fecha: martes, 24 de mayo de 2016, 14:09
>>>>>>> Para: Harish Pillay <[e-mail]>
>>>>>>> CC: <[e-mail]>
>>>>>>> Asunto: Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 May 2016, Harish Pillay wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ever used. That is my world experience. When I travel to the US and
>>>>>>>>> I see people carrying weapons, how am I supposed to react/respond?
>>>>>>>> Let me +1 this here, I am seriously scared for my life whenever I interact
>>>>>>>> with law enforcement officers in the US, just from the fact that I know
>>>>>>>> they have to interact with armed people all the time and have to be
>>>>>>>> cautious that anyone they interact with has a decent likelyhood to be
>>>>>>>> armed.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/states-that-have-stand-your-ground-laws.html
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If we can't go to Singapore because they happen to have anti-LGBT laws on
>>>>>>>> the books, then I suggest we do not have any further meetings in USA at
>>>>>>>> all, especially not states that have stand-your-ground laws on their
>>>>>>>> books.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As opposed to Singapore where anti-LGBT laws aren't really enforced, in
>>>>>>>> USA these kinds of laws seems to be on the rise instead of things getting
>>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Mikael Abrahamsson    email: [e-mail]
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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