Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input

Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com> Tue, 24 May 2016 17:27 UTC

Return-Path: <ynir.ietf@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6663F12D0AA for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 24 May 2016 10:27:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.7
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y64pH1KRAN7W for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 24 May 2016 10:27:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-wm0-x22b.google.com (mail-wm0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DBBA12D810 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 24 May 2016 10:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-wm0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id z87so14513866wmh.1 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 24 May 2016 10:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=nghLzr3IJDp1KalEgU5SwE9n0qjmC/xYjfDRwIbGvHM=; b=OYbfz998ENaPAwW2I/Ul6GNooofreNkIGFrUm6paRd7NuerQ8/42EFZI0YP72ly3BJ W2z8lXIAPuWmHYpzcgdkE/HLMCMVxDwHICMrcvoVBiy6t/yH1hihFsSc9q3unRV0UelZ iBrC8hh/i1+dDgXleGjdOScMn3cGr9zDstX4eTx1NbbfgE/R74LtOP+bQAfy+BQ8hbZf CjUzyvKt3JDWN2ssgy7ztFhy7+DX54Ix3ak7mDHGGvDutYMLBaC3yjG9rbFvMVV0y/cE 9G/b16otUIF9qpUolLvNBtGNcurw5gGrrGHDP4Zl2+vSWGu+aiFoc0j/VEgh95J7Ci3B K5hg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=nghLzr3IJDp1KalEgU5SwE9n0qjmC/xYjfDRwIbGvHM=; b=SzUmgDznEkuKrnYx0qDy8ry4mzq3UgUJXlOomNM8QVCg9JjU3w8QmbnmIVi7PJY6Pt lSOXTkuACBs5xlJY1ojKnDiJ6xZstCXc0B8yACf/ro0O6vgWiclwflzBV2DG3A9zKVkW BjRkck93Lttr48maFtJTzM31zfJikRX5btSVE4Vrnw4lP6RxTPitdcDzyZx4tnBoP51r s7v4tF85Ml59AaHGugtnixTM5wWZCegcr2sxEtVq8HX+iBcu/u56haOIVosn3ucRf/Lf A6THIAyrpGzEp5tDfsY+d07donepUjyneBKKyBfSx4zXXKsTEiQtsmDldyny4dqhHLHA Y62w==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUKvwf2MbA5BLMRvsO9KuET8OZepj891ai9+tup2ySSvaMdG3JIX9xOhhoyKKSeKQ==
X-Received: by 10.28.176.129 with SMTP id z123mr23359319wme.74.1464110820762; Tue, 24 May 2016 10:27:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.14] ([46.120.57.147]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id kq9sm4291774wjc.26.2016.05.24.10.26.59 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 24 May 2016 10:27:00 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\))
Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
From: Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <8161273d-97c2-2757-5f0c-6146d0b297aa@nostrum.com>
Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 20:26:57 +0300
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <E51DA1A2-AB3E-42F7-BC0A-308BE6B58580@gmail.com>
References: <D3662363.190A96%jon.peterson@neustar.biz> <CAP8yD=spam0tQdfD-ssA6y_n-cuugHtrHKwTYieSruo8SMg_VQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAHkmkwtEtDk4sPv3GjkrSFqOdRV3HBA5i2_uZu3X2D4RxSF4wA@mail.gmail.com> <2e95fd51-23b8-39e7-d4ca-a9fc9d49559c@gmail.com> <CAHkmkwsf3YfFfR7jUHYnaw6dCrasMOazjbXPJRRhZS28k8HV0w@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1605241405210.28372@uplift.swm.pp.se> <714DDDE2-562D-488A-AAAA-F8DE3C2CA97D@consulintel.es> <FE76F502-617E-4190-BFF5-649EC9CFECAC@consulintel.es> <CABcZeBMPAFdLwZTr7TCJC-tZ+X=CKGzQ7Jp0zqDO86PdPn6YvQ@mail.gmail.com> <8D82EA4F-1275-436C-8030-1E799F5D7F59@consulintel.es> <CABcZeBOCtk6JK_3w2_L87oyze+dfgy7fFyU7QrGmGgEtta1oZA@mail.gmail.com> <1CA535AB-CAC4-49CB-B094-AAA7FE3119FB@consulintel.es> <2b01eb8f-d319-7d20-0f84-9a774f9e0e44@nostrum.com> <C01AE269-3168-4B6A-B8D8-D97230288302@gmail.com> <8161273d-97c2-2757-5f0c-6146d0b297aa@nostrum.com>
To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124)
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/xKnfURT_VYUzu30qhX76qLuFxj4>
Cc: IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>, jordi.palet@consulintel.es
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 17:27:06 -0000

You do realize that (1) includes most EU countries?

Anyway, (2) would exclude me and about a dozen of our regulars. Gun ownership by citizens does not exclude anyone. Failure by a state to recognize my sister’s marriage does not exclude her from traveling there if that was necessary for her work. 

I do not doubt that it sucks to be a gay or bisexual male living in Singapore. Spending a week there for work should be fine.


> On 24 May 2016, at 7:18 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
> 
> This shouldn't be that hard to think about. Would you have a greater objection to the IETF selecting (1) a locale that allows private citizen ownership of guns or (2) a country that refuses to recognize Israeli passports?
> 
> /a
> 
> On 5/24/16 09:37, Yoav Nir wrote:
>> And does that mean it should count more?  Less?
>> 
>>> On 24 May 2016, at 5:33 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> One of the things on your list is completely unlike the others.
>>> 
>>> #1, #2, #3, #4, and #6 affect everyone equally.
>>> 
>>> #5 does not.
>>> 
>>> That's pretty fundamental to this discussion.
>>> 
>>> /a
>>> 
>>> On 5/24/16 09:28, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
>>>> Do we really want to debate this now and in this list?
>>>> 
>>>> My suggestion was looking into “hopefully” we don’t start that way with the first case Singapore, because then I will must take all the points in the “Topics” section of the web site you suggested.
>>>> 
>>>> Just to name a few (not in any particular order), which are relevant to countries that we visited already, and some that we visit often:
>>>> 
>>>> 1) Freedom of Speech
>>>> 2) Death penalty
>>>> 3) Torture
>>>> 4) Justice
>>>> 5) LGBT rights
>>>> 6) Free use of guns
>>>> 
>>>> As said, if we go that way, we will end up in reducing to the half the number of possible countries from the ones we have already been.
>>>> 
>>>> Saludos,
>>>> Jordi
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>>>> De: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
>>>> Responder a: <ekr@rtfm.com>
>>>> Fecha: martes, 24 de mayo de 2016, 16:18
>>>> Para: Jordi Palet Martinez <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
>>>> CC: IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
>>>> Asunto: Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
>>>> 
>>>>> It seems like generally most countries have some human rights issues to complain about. Could you please indicate which countries we would be free to visit under your proposed rule?
>>>>> -Ekr
>>>>> 
>>>>> P.S. You might find https://www.hrw.org/ useful here.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 6:50 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> In the context:
>>>>> 
>>>>> “IF” we decide not to go to Singapore, then we must avoid going to ANY country that is against human rights, including death penalty.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Saludos,
>>>>> Jordi
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>>>>> De: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
>>>>> Responder a: <ekr@rtfm.com>
>>>>> Fecha: martes, 24 de mayo de 2016, 15:46
>>>>> Para: Jordi Palet Martinez <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
>>>>> CC: IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
>>>>> Asunto: Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 5:25 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I will go further:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>      The same must apply for any country where death penalty is still applied.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So I take it you oppose meeting in Singapore?
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapore
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -Ekr
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Saludos,
>>>>>> Jordi
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>>>>>> De: ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de Jordi Palet Martinez <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
>>>>>> Responder a: Jordi Palet Martinez <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
>>>>>> Fecha: martes, 24 de mayo de 2016, 14:22
>>>>>> Para: <ietf@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Asunto: Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Saludos,
>>>>>>> Jordi
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>>>>>>> De: ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
>>>>>>> Organización: People's Front Against WWW
>>>>>>> Responder a: <swmike@swm.pp.se>
>>>>>>> Fecha: martes, 24 de mayo de 2016, 14:09
>>>>>>> Para: Harish Pillay <harish.pillay@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> CC: <ietf@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> Asunto: Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 May 2016, Harish Pillay wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ever used. That is my world experience. When I travel to the US and
>>>>>>>>> I see people carrying weapons, how am I supposed to react/respond?
>>>>>>>> Let me +1 this here, I am seriously scared for my life whenever I interact
>>>>>>>> with law enforcement officers in the US, just from the fact that I know
>>>>>>>> they have to interact with armed people all the time and have to be
>>>>>>>> cautious that anyone they interact with has a decent likelyhood to be
>>>>>>>> armed.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/states-that-have-stand-your-ground-laws.html
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If we can't go to Singapore because they happen to have anti-LGBT laws on
>>>>>>>> the books, then I suggest we do not have any further meetings in USA at
>>>>>>>> all, especially not states that have stand-your-ground laws on their
>>>>>>>> books.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As opposed to Singapore where anti-LGBT laws aren't really enforced, in
>>>>>>>> USA these kinds of laws seems to be on the rise instead of things getting
>>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> **********************************************
>>>>>>> IPv4 is over
>>>>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>>>>>>> http://www.consulintel.es
>>>>>>> The IPv6 Company
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>