Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> Wed, 25 May 2016 20:37 UTC
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 16:36:23 -0400
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Subject: Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
To: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com>
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> "We" can have a very > successful meeting, depending on the value of "we." > So, when we talk about "we," who's included? It's probably easier to enumerate who's excluded than who's included: - Clearly, anyone who is not willing either as a matter of principle or a matter of concern for safety to travel to a country where engaging in consensual sex with their partner is illegal would be excluded. But in order to consider this a matter of personal safety, one would have to assume that something unusual would happen, because from that particular perspective, nobody has _in fact_ been arrested for such behavior since the 1990s, and I wasn't able to find a single example of a foreigner being arrested (which doesn't mean it's never happened). However, as a matter of principle, which you have expressed, this would exclude you, and that is definitely a bad outcome. I think it's quite reasonable to refuse to attend as a matter of principle, so we have to take this seriously. Of course you would be able to participate remotely, but we've had that discussion elsewhere, and it's not terribly comforting. - Other people who are excluded are anybody who can't afford to travel to Singapore for a week, whether they live the next town over or in Florida. - Other people who are excluded are anybody who is unable to get a visa. Vinayak Hegde spoke rather eloquently on this topic on the mtgvenue mailing list recently. - Anyone who believes that flying internationally three times a year is too heavy of a carbon burden is excluded (I know several people for whom this is the case). There are two problems with looking at it this way. First, from this perspective all venues look alike: there is no destination where everyone is welcomed equally. This is a point several people have made. The other is that it treats a matter of intolerance as equivalent to a matter of immigration policy. If you have suffered from intolerance all your life, this will seem unfair. If you have been treated as a third-class world citizen all your life, it will also seem unfair. You and I have a certain kind of privilege that people from countries like India and Mexico don't have, and that has to feel unfair to them. I have a kind of privilege you don't have, and I'm sure that feels unfair to you (FWIW, which isn't much, it also feels unfair to me). In terms of the practical impacts of this, Singapore may well be less bad than the U.S. for more IETF participants. Or it may be more bad--I really don't know. But while the specific form of discrimination that we see with Singapore is indeed different, and objectionable to folks like you and me and Ted, the other kind of discrimination is completely invisible to us, except in the sense that some IETFs we don't see people we were hoping to see, who happen to come from those countries. The point is, it is a perfectly valid position to say "as a matter of principle, the IETF should not go to Singapore because of their intolerance of LGBT people." But it is also a perfectly valid position to say "as a matter of principle, the IETF should go to Singapore, because it is an easier destination for a lot of Asian people than any destination outside of Asia." It's possible to frame the statements so that one sounds more acceptable than the other, but I think doing so is obfuscatory, not illuminatory.
- IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and … IAOC Chair
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michal Krsek
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michal Krsek
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Brian E Carpenter
- IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and … Richard Barnes
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Lixia Zhang
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John Levine
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Loa Andersson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Andrew Allen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… l.wood
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… lloyd.wood
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Allison Mankin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Harish Pillay
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Harish Pillay
- RE: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John E Drake
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Randy Bush
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Sam Hartman
- RE: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Christian Huitema
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- build personal contacts outside of meetings [was … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Randall Gellens
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… lloyd.wood
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… lloyd.wood
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Sandoche Balakrichenan
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Richard Barnes
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: Havana and Juggalos (was: IETF 100, Singapore… Theodore V Faber
- Re: Havana and Juggalos (was: IETF 100, Singapore… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Jari Arkko
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and … Barry Raveendran Greene
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Barry Raveendran Greene
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … John Levine
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Barry Raveendran Greene
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- RE: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Andrew Allen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Sandoche Balakrichenan
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Dave Crocker
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Patrick McManus
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael StJohns
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Margaret Cullen
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Michael StJohns
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Hardie
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Hardie
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Adam Roach
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Michal Krsek
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Cullen Jennings
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Paul Wouters
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Cullen Jennings
- RE: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Donald Eastlake
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Eliot Lear
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Cullen Jennings
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Eliot Lear
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Sandoche Balakrichenan
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John Hoe
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Michael StJohns
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Livingood, Jason
- IAOC response to question of clarification Re: [R… Leslie Daigle
- Re: IAOC response to question of clarification Re… Ted Hardie