Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input

Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> Tue, 24 May 2016 19:05 UTC

Return-Path: <akatlas@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792A512D9CD for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 24 May 2016 12:05:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -102.699
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y1lLLeYwEZ3D for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 24 May 2016 12:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-yw0-x234.google.com (mail-yw0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18AE012D9B5 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 24 May 2016 12:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-yw0-x234.google.com with SMTP id x189so25540183ywe.3 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 24 May 2016 12:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=O5SJZAMnPu4wwGDWxU28UYbgDfre3vxYDDqfdKsifG8=; b=ik8dwNvYV363QPe2A+c/e2CftJla61nq5dpzcXzDr6UHOfHd6TXIDo113p77W5icw4 KWbQpIxS+/AXaCkGZwdOpNKo/FE+JP0NPs8DHF/jxuL8a3ITkgeXuHzszUsvkzAOVfni WSDpxGgXf3jKJwEJWzAJiQ1j+uZ1MTPCO+yEhL7Sc80DR8oQNGuVa0QiuxwLpyNCECn2 OeIaeIiZeX/1osiR62SYUfFPx0yKmPkCZcpuleefwUg7yjdgwYO3eHohyuYYq9rsdmTV VQyyOjX4wowO1t6Wj71qHw3vHxMAeMOUo8KIPKMILwgOC1wxkAaX5dKn+nz8/tMdP8kw Z22w==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=O5SJZAMnPu4wwGDWxU28UYbgDfre3vxYDDqfdKsifG8=; b=dRS9r2cZZMaWOwFHQZ003XtF4E7Wanej5mwnKm/mpoDM5viTOKDG0fN6s3/M8Dct0c aarLRQAFuUrhqXDeIWnkIDa+O8Xt9MavVpLkTa7aTv1tfKJwhDWntGTJfvb0qLiNZsSx GVOpAjyICc9Nod9g2BUpqdb81HtcyKrUoh8/9ZlUfWqxpzzRdoD9Imu5CsrHN403nckV h/IFAfx1xpLFWjevjV5yI8C4sDckDCqpeipbX3uEqKuXb0FCs//tW1vAWQN+BpxYMYfi ccqVjF7riiXG5lulzmvGwKInmY/K0d4bHCbAQ/U8SyquF1XjXFibIEWBbzdug6uSQ+tH neCQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJBDh7ZiSVSZPEtceCjR/eUxDssFv6EuUl/vR4LwDMx/fG63Rk9CQMFW+ya4uY3XF9fRD4P0ztchpmYgQ==
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.129.145.75 with SMTP id i72mr3775876ywg.228.1464116749257; Tue, 24 May 2016 12:05:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.13.221.74 with HTTP; Tue, 24 May 2016 12:05:49 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CAHbuEH6PWj_097ZMtgwP3SBQvUo0pzDL2vrTWz38auZOLFboHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D3662363.190A96%jon.peterson@neustar.biz> <CAP8yD=spam0tQdfD-ssA6y_n-cuugHtrHKwTYieSruo8SMg_VQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAHkmkwtEtDk4sPv3GjkrSFqOdRV3HBA5i2_uZu3X2D4RxSF4wA@mail.gmail.com> <2e95fd51-23b8-39e7-d4ca-a9fc9d49559c@gmail.com> <CAHkmkwsf3YfFfR7jUHYnaw6dCrasMOazjbXPJRRhZS28k8HV0w@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1605241405210.28372@uplift.swm.pp.se> <714DDDE2-562D-488A-AAAA-F8DE3C2CA97D@consulintel.es> <FE76F502-617E-4190-BFF5-649EC9CFECAC@consulintel.es> <CABcZeBMPAFdLwZTr7TCJC-tZ+X=CKGzQ7Jp0zqDO86PdPn6YvQ@mail.gmail.com> <8D82EA4F-1275-436C-8030-1E799F5D7F59@consulintel.es> <CABcZeBOCtk6JK_3w2_L87oyze+dfgy7fFyU7QrGmGgEtta1oZA@mail.gmail.com> <1CA535AB-CAC4-49CB-B094-AAA7FE3119FB@consulintel.es> <2b01eb8f-d319-7d20-0f84-9a774f9e0e44@nostrum.com> <C01AE269-3168-4B6A-B8D8-D97230288302@gmail.com> <8161273d-97c2-2757-5f0c-6146d0b297aa@nostrum.com> <E51DA1A2-AB3E-42F7-BC0A-308BE6B58580@gmail.com> <2270ea7c-cd6d-c3d5-e768-6d1f0ae15605@nostrum.com> <216D2B11-5E07-4DBE-BCC4-0A8ABCCB15B7@gmail.com> <CAHbuEH6PWj_097ZMtgwP3SBQvUo0pzDL2vrTWz38auZOLFboHg@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 15:05:49 -0400
Message-ID: <CAG4d1rfvBphNDfQpdWk2wkg6_8Xc2iW+mys3hSzvE2UGxfZa4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c09418ec0847505339b3e86
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/NrIFqZAkgLnOhQb5v_so3vK9-CM>
Cc: Jordi Palet Martinez <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 19:05:54 -0000

I am another who traveled bringing my family with me - all 3 babies over
the years - because,
as Kathleen says, the logistics, maintaining supply (it's a feedback loop),
and time to pump
vs. nurse is high.  Incidentally, avoiding painful medical conditions
(mastitis for instance) is
another strong reason to avoid long absences; for those who are nursing,
this is basically
medical necessity.

Until my oldest was school-aged, that meant bringing the whole family
because it is really really hard to find someone trustworthy and local to
foreign countries to take
care of a baby/toddler for 14-16 hours a day.

As for the companion program, how many who are discussing it have brought
someone along
to an IETF?  It is a matter of convenience to make it easier for companions
to meet each other
and make plans to do stuff.  To attend the companion's reception costs
money for that companion.
Mailing lists are not expensive.  I view it as an easy courtesy.

There are certainly circumstances where an IETFer needs to bring others,
whether adult or chlid,
so that the IETFer can get things done.

Regards,
Alia


On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Kathleen Moriarty <
kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 24 May 2016, at 8:44 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
> >
> > I do not doubt that it sucks to be a gay or bisexual male living in
> > Singapore. Spending a week there for work should be fine.
> >
> >
> > I'll again agree with Jari's formulation, adding emphasis to the final
> three
> > cited words: "I think it is of course necessary to consider things that
> > affect the ability to enter, safety (possibly including usual human
> > activities that people do outside meetings anyway, families travelling
> > along)”.
> >
> >
> > Then I guess where I disagree with both you and Melinda is that I don’t
> > think the ability to bring families along should be an important
> > consideration. This may be because I have never traveled to work with
> > family, nor do I consider them coming as anything other than a vacation
> (for
> > them - I would be stuck in meetings). I am somewhat uncomfortable with
> idea
> > of a companion program, but that’s a subject for a different thread.
> >
> > Yes, there are exceptional cases such as when people need to travel with
> > companions due to disability. Traveling with family beyond that is a
> choice.
>
> Breastfeeding is another instance where brining your family is
> important.  8 days is just too long to be away from a baby
> breastfeeding.  It's a lot of milk to pump and send back or have
> stocked up in advance.  There are some instances where having a
> support person and child are essential to some attendees being able to
> participate.  I've said this already and Ted made this argument
> already.  There may be other situations, I don't know as I haven't run
> into them yet.
>
> Kathleen
>
>
> > Assuming the worst about Singapore, it’s not fair that I have that
> choice,
> > while Ted may feel that he does not. But if we can conclude that our
> > participants themselves face no risk of harm or discrimination, I don’t
> > think that should be a consideration.
> >
> > Yoav
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>
>