Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Sat, 21 May 2016 21:50 UTC
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Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 17:50:12 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
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--On Sunday, May 22, 2016 09:00 +1200 Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 22/05/2016 08:13, John C Klensin wrote: >> Jordi, >> >> I am almost completely in agreement with Ted's comment and >> summary which are, I think, exceptionally reasonable and >> well-balanced. > > I agree, but I also agree with Jordi. The main reason for > having a diversity policy is ethical and moral, but there's > also a 'business' reason - making use of everybody's talents > to the maximum - and that surely is the fundamental reason for > the whole site selection policy anyway. It certainly isn't > providing tourist and vacation opportunities for family > members. So... > > <snip> > > ... >> In particular, "nice place to bring family or companion(s)" is >> either a selection criterion or it isn't. I'm not talking >> about where it is in the list of priorities and tradeoffs; >> I'm talking about whether or not it is on the list. > > It could be on the list if we believe that it has a significant > impact on attendance and therefore on financial viability. But > that's surely secondary to 'getting the work done' and > 'getting the best range of people to the meeting'. Again, I have no problem with putting it on the list if that is what the community decides is appropriate. My only concern is that, if the community makes that decision, then there is no longer an option of saying to some particular subset of the community "well, too bad, you don't get to bring your family even though we can bring ours because your note being able to bring your family doesn't interfere with getting the work done or otherwise having a successful meeting". Putting that into the terms you use above, we should decide that ability to bring families, or a nice environment for companions, or whatever the issue is, should be on the list of criteria only if we consider it important to getting the work done and/or getting the best range of people to the meeting. But, if we make a decision that "family-friendly" or "companion-friendly" is part of a successful meeting, then it needs to apply to everyone, not some privileged or locally politically-acceptable subset. >> If it is on the list, >> then I think there is an absolute responsibility on the >> Meetings Committee and IAOC to select only those locations >> where everyone in the community who is inclined to bring >> non-participants along can do so. No one gets to say (I >> don't think you have, but a few others have come close) "It >> is ok if your particular family doesn't feel comfortable >> coming because our main priority is getting work done". >> Either "nice for companions" is a criterion or it isn't and, >> if it is, then it needs to apply to _all_ plausible >> companions. > Certainly, if we consider it, even as a secondary criterion, > it needs to have a non-discriminatory effect, for moral, > ethical *and* business reasons. Exactly. >> As to Singapore, if the conclusion is that we should hold IETF >> 100 there (or that we can't plausibly extricate ourselves), >> I'm strongly drawn to the suggestion I think I heard Ted make >> at the plenary, that, out of respect for his situation and >> that of others, _no one_ should bring a family or other >> companions to Singapore. > > I'm not sure how realistic that is, but I can no longer resist > a comment that may be politically incorrect but to my mind > shows how complex this discussion could easily get. > > I love Chicago. But some stupidity in the US system means that > citizens there are now able to carry concealed guns pretty > much anywhere anytime. I will no longer feel comfortable there > next time I visit. I'm not sure I'd want to bring family > members to such a dangerous environment (and the same went for > the last meeting in Dallas). So by your logic, no_one should > bring family or a companion to IETF 98. The analogy does not work. First, there is the point that has been made several times on the list (most recently by Melinda today). State-prohibited (i.e., illegal) behavior is different from environmental risks. But let me push the analogy a bit further. First, I grew up in a place where "open carry" (i.e., people can carry just about whatever weapons they like as long as they are in plain sight) was the norm going back to the 1940s and 1950s and probably still is. Probably that makes me feel a little less uncomfortable about the idea that someone might be carrying a gun (whether I can see it or not) than you are, even though I don't like the idea and prefer places with stronger gun-carrying restrictions (I note that is, at least historically, by not means a universal view in the IETF). If there were enough people who felt strongly about gun-risk (or, in principle, the risks associated with _not_ being able to carry guns) to affect participant attendance or meeting effectiveness, I'd certainly hope that the meetings committee would consider it in selecting sites. However, that is the second place your analogy breaks down -- you may be willing to take risks for yourself (e.g., "go to Chicago and risk some loony with a gun") that you are not willing to take for your family, but that is your personal risk assessment, not fundamentally an IETF issue unless assessments like yours are likely to affect meeting attendance. Again, again, in Melissa's terms, the issues are environmental, not state action. A more interesting analogy is that there are some potential meeting cities with fairly horrible air quality. That isn't just a statement about the obvious location in East Asia -- the IETF has met, or considered meeting, multiple times in European, especially Eastern European, cities that, at a poorly-chosen time of year, have had air quality poor enough to constitute a health threat to those of us with chronic respiratory problems. That is also not a matter of state action -- no one is going to arrest me for breathing -- but, if I go to such a place and am not _really_ careful, I can have breathing problems that are potentially life-threatening and from which it can take me a long time to recover. Now, I do expect the site selection process to take "some likely participants will be unable to breathe" into account. If the numbers of those who won't come are likely to be high enough to reduce meeting effectiveness (or reduce the credibility of any decisions that might be reached, even tentatively), then I expect they will decide against that city as a meeting site. On the other hand, if they decide we should meet there, I would expect them to be open to a conversation about reasonable accommodations, e.g., doing some surveying and making information available to help me find a hotel room where air is sufficiently filtered that I can sleep and breathe at night. I even believe that, on the same principle of reasonable accommodation, the IAOC should be willing to pick up at least part of the marginal costs if such a room and associated facilities turn out to be much more expensive than the "normal" IETF spaces. I'd expect the same accommodation model for people needing crutches/wheelchairs if the IETF chose to meet in a location where elevators/ lifts were not generally available and ground floor rooms were either hard to get or significantly more expensive than upper floors. Again, for that sort of case, no one is going to arrest me and throw me in jail for wheezing. And there are no laws that allow or encourage them to do so, whether those laws are actively enforced or not. john
- IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and … IAOC Chair
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michal Krsek
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michal Krsek
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Brian E Carpenter
- IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and … Richard Barnes
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Lixia Zhang
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John Levine
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Loa Andersson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Andrew Allen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… l.wood
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… lloyd.wood
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Allison Mankin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Harish Pillay
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Harish Pillay
- RE: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John E Drake
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Randy Bush
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Sam Hartman
- RE: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Christian Huitema
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- build personal contacts outside of meetings [was … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Randall Gellens
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… lloyd.wood
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… lloyd.wood
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Sandoche Balakrichenan
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Richard Barnes
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: Havana and Juggalos (was: IETF 100, Singapore… Theodore V Faber
- Re: Havana and Juggalos (was: IETF 100, Singapore… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Jari Arkko
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and … Barry Raveendran Greene
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Barry Raveendran Greene
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … John Levine
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Barry Raveendran Greene
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- RE: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Andrew Allen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Sandoche Balakrichenan
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Dave Crocker
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Patrick McManus
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael StJohns
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Margaret Cullen
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Michael StJohns
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Hardie
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Hardie
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Adam Roach
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Michal Krsek
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Cullen Jennings
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Paul Wouters
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Cullen Jennings
- RE: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Donald Eastlake
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Eliot Lear
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Cullen Jennings
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Eliot Lear
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Sandoche Balakrichenan
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John Hoe
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Michael StJohns
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Livingood, Jason
- IAOC response to question of clarification Re: [R… Leslie Daigle
- Re: IAOC response to question of clarification Re… Ted Hardie