Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> Mon, 23 May 2016 09:57 UTC
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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 05:57:10 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and request for input
To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Hi Eliot, Quoting your item message, as you prefer, and responding inline. On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 5:40 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote: > Ted, > On 5/23/16 10:31 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: > > On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 11:18 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote: > >> >> Hi Ted, >> >> Put more bluntly: there will *always* be some group who is at least >> inconvenienced and at most prohibited from attending a meeting. >> > > A commitment to inclusiveness is something that takes work. If you give > up on it *ab initio *as impossible, it is not a principle, it is window > dressing. > > > You have, however inadvertently, taken a single sentence out of context > and distorted the meaning of my message. I wrote in that same message: > > Quite frankly barring a location itself is a form of exclusion, especially > when taking into account economics. It may be an *appropriate* exclusion > if going there means that many others would be excluded. Kathleen and > Suresh, and later Dave and Narelle, have made clear that > diversity/inclusiveness is a broad notion. Gender, sexual preference, and > nationality are all listed in Fred's draft, as is religion. {...} > > > And this: > > What I find worrying is that we may end up foreclosing participation to > new members because of their governments' laws. They need to be considered > in this discussion, and thus far it feels as though they have not been, and > often aren't. That is particularly problematic because it risks the future > of this organization, which isn't growing very quickly, to begin with. > > While you are certainly entitled to worry about this, reacting to the worry as you have still feels to me like abandoning the principles *ab initio*, rather than trying to apply them and seeing where the rough points lie. One issue that your and others' analyses seems to imply is that the 1-1-1-* formulation is not sufficient. If it were, finding a small number of venues that suited us and shuttling among them would generate the fairness required. If the pure 1-1-1-* were sufficient, knowing one venue worked (as a strawman, Yokohama) would mean would not have to investigate other places. But your analysis suggests that you believe that this is not enough, and that we need to also go to South Korea, China, Taiwan, etc., to be fair. Or am I misreading you? > And so, it's a matter of who we decide to exclude, > And I think this is an astonishingly bad formulation. I would say instead "It's a matter of how include folks who cannot meet in a specific venue". > and the impact that will have on the future of this organization. The > only question is whether we will make those decisions consciously and > conscientiously or not. > Based on the criteria discussed up thread, if you seek such a rigid > standard, you will exclude fair access > (by the way, your use of "fair access" here is what caused me to conclude that you did not think 1-1-1-* was enough to generate fairness. If that is wrong, explaining would help) to engineers from some of the largest and most populous countries on the > planet, including India, China, most of Japan, and by the way South Korea, > all but one of those places we have already visited. These people are not > simply going to evaporate if we don't accept their participation, but > rather they will find other avenues to acceptance of their work. At the > same time, critics will say that the IETF is a western endeavor that > promotes only western values > I think if we come to consensus on the values, they are our values. > and not a truly international organization. This, itself, is a form of > fragmenting of the Internet. > I think that particular hyperbole is damaging. We are not fragmenting the Internet by requesting that the physical meetings of one of its technical bodies be constituted to treat its own principles seriously. Ted > > Eliot > >
- IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and … IAOC Chair
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michal Krsek
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michal Krsek
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Brian E Carpenter
- IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and … Richard Barnes
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Lixia Zhang
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John Levine
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Loa Andersson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Andrew Allen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John C Klensin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… l.wood
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… lloyd.wood
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Allison Mankin
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Harish Pillay
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Harish Pillay
- RE: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John E Drake
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Randy Bush
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Sam Hartman
- RE: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Christian Huitema
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- build personal contacts outside of meetings [was … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Randall Gellens
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… lloyd.wood
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… lloyd.wood
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Sandoche Balakrichenan
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Richard Barnes
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: Havana and Juggalos (was: IETF 100, Singapore… Theodore V Faber
- Re: Havana and Juggalos (was: IETF 100, Singapore… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Jari Arkko
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward and … Barry Raveendran Greene
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Adam Roach
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Yoav Nir
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Barry Raveendran Greene
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … John Levine
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Barry Raveendran Greene
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- RE: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Andrew Allen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Sandoche Balakrichenan
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Dave Crocker
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Patrick McManus
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael StJohns
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Margaret Cullen
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Michael StJohns
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Hardie
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Hardie
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Adam Roach
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … nalini.elkins
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … S Moonesamy
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: build personal contacts outside of meetings [… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Michal Krsek
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Melinda Shore
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Michael Richardson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Eliot Lear
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Cullen Jennings
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Paul Wouters
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Cullen Jennings
- RE: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Ted Lemon
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… kathleen.moriarty.ietf
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Donald Eastlake
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Eliot Lear
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Cullen Jennings
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Eliot Lear
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Sandoche Balakrichenan
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Vinayak Hegde
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… John Hoe
- Re: IETF 100, Singapore -- proposed path forward … Michael StJohns
- Re: [Recentattendees] IETF 100, Singapore -- prop… Livingood, Jason
- IAOC response to question of clarification Re: [R… Leslie Daigle
- Re: IAOC response to question of clarification Re… Ted Hardie