Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding everywhere but the Web
Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com> Tue, 16 December 2014 22:30 UTC
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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com>
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 17:30:08 -0500
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To: "<rtcweb@ietf.org>" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding everywhere but the Web
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On Dec 16, 2014, at 3:18 PM, David Singer <singer@apple.com> wrote: > > no, quite the reverse. If all browsers are also devices, then we only need to state the requirements for browsers if they differ from devices, and they don’t, do they? [BA] Let us get real. The idea that codecs are holding back WebRTC web site development is entirely bogus. Today developers are building WebRTC mobile apps that interoperate across platforms, based on a codec chosen by the developer. This works well enough that there are at least half a dozen major apps, each serving (tens? hundreds?) of millions of users. What we have NOT seen is a comparable blossoming of Web sites based on WebRTC. Clearly this cannot have to do with codecs because both WebRTC-enabled browsers support a common codec. So at present, a developer can build a mobile app and web site using VP8 that interoperates. Yet that has not been enough. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why. The IETF RTCWEB protocols are relatively mature (with the exception of new stuff like ICE mobility) since they are mostly based on RFCs that were already implemented in working open source prior to WebRTC. So give a mobile developer open source code that works and they will figure out the APIs and what fixes/customizations they need to make it work. However the browser model is very different. The browser app developer typically cannot compile their own browser or fix browser bugs so they have to live with what is there. Today's polyfills typically only work for audio so writing a multi-browser video app that supports multiple video streams is a nightmare even without a codec problem. Imposing a dual MTI requirement will not solve this problem and in fact is likely to make it worse, because I fully expect that video capabilities will differ markedly between implementations. So today with the same codec we see browsers differ in multi stream, simulcast and SVC capabilities. From these three dimensions, adding more codecs is likely to add to the dimensions of difference on several more dimensions. Care to guess how much more time it will take to polyfill all the *new* differences?
- [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti codec Sean Turner
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Krasimir D. Kolarov
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Jack Moffitt
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Monty Montgomery
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Nathan Egge
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Cavigioli, Chris
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Nathan Egge
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Gustavo Garcia
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Ron
- [rtcweb] Interop *and* robustness Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Maire Reavy
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Simon Perreault
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Cavigioli, Chris
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Suhas Nandakumar
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Alexandre GOUAILLARD
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Cavigioli, Chris
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Monty Montgomery
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Bo Burman
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… stephane.proust
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Erik Lagerway
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- [rtcweb] WebRTC compatible endpoints (WAS: confir… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] WebRTC compatible endpoints (WAS: co… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] WebRTC compatible endpoints (WAS: co… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] WebRTC compatible endpoints (WAS: co… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] WebRTC compatible endpoints (WAS: co… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was: Re:… Florian Weimer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was:… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] WebRTC compatible endpoints (WAS: co… Randell Jesup
- [rtcweb] WebRTC endpoint categories Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was:… Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was:… Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was:… Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was:… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] WebRTC endpoint categories Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options Florian Weimer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was:… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was:… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options Richard Barnes
- [rtcweb] What is the judging criteria? (Was: H.26… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] What is the judging criteria? (Was: … Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] What is the judging criteria? (Was: … Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] What is the judging criteria? (Was: … Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] What is the judging criteria? (Was: … cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] WebRTC endpoint categories Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] What is the judging criteria? (Was: … Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Ross Finlayson
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Unhappy People (was: confirming sens… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Sean Turner
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Jonathan Rosenberg
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- [rtcweb] Please change the subject! Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… John Leslie
- [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Sean Turner
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Cavigioli, Chris
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo