Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI
John Leslie <john@jlc.net> Tue, 16 December 2014 16:25 UTC
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 11:25:34 -0500
From: John Leslie <john@jlc.net>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI
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Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 7:21 AM, John Leslie <john@jlc.net> wrote: > >> Perhaps it is; perhaps not: we'd have to listen to the audio to be >> sure. Even after hearing the audio once, I'm not quite sure... > > Again, huh? No, "still". > The version that was discussed in Honolulu is on the slides here: > > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/91/slides/slides-91-rtcweb-7.pdf > > on page 14. The text isn't exactly the same but it's substantively > the same as what's in the draft. You prove my point... > Needless to say, having WG consensus on the substance and letting the > editor wordsmith the text is totally normal IETF process. In some cases, yes. IMHO, this is not one of them. YMMV... > I haven't heard anyone who was at HNL and in favor of the text on the > slides object that Adam's text in the draft doesn't reflect those > slides. Probably you haven't... > Besides, Eric isn't the WGC calling consensus. > > No, the chairs did here: > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg13696.html ] ] From: Sean Turner <turners at ieca.com> ] At the 2nd RTCweb WG session @ IETF 91, we had a lively discussion ] about codecs, which I dubbed "the great codec compromise." ] The compromise text that was discussed appears in slides 12-14 at [4] ] (which is a slight editorial variation of the text proposed at [2]). ] ] This message serves to confirm the sense of the room. Actually, as I read this more carefully, that isn't a consensus call. Sean goes on to dismiss the objections he heard in the room: ] ] In the room, I heard the following objections and responses (and I'm ] paraphrasing here), which I'll take the liberty of categorizing as ] IPR, Time, and Trigger: ] ] 1) IPR: ] Objections: There are still IPR concerns which may restrict what a ] particular organization feels comfortable with including in their ] browser implementations. ] Response: IPR concerns on this topic are well known. There is even a ] draft summarizing the current IPR status for VP8: ] draft-benham-rtcweb-vp8litigation. The sense of the room was still ] that adopting the compromise text was appropriate. Sean is stating his view of consensus-of-the-room. ] 2) Time: ] 2.1) Time to consider decision: ] Objection: The decision to consider the compromise proposal at this ] meeting was provided on short notice and did not provide some the ] opportunity to attend in person. ] Response: Six months ago the chairs made it clear discussion would be ] revisited @ IETF 91. The first agenda proposal for the WG included this ] topic, and the topic was never removed by the chairs. More importantly, ] all decisions are confirmed on list; in person attendance is not ] required to be part of the process. Sean is defending the action of the WGCs. ] 2.2) Time to consider text: ] Objection: The proposed text [2] is too new to be considered. ] Response: The requirement for browsers to support both VP8 and H.264 ] was among the options in the straw poll conducted more than six months ] ago. All decisions are confirmed on list so there will be ample time ] to discuss the proposal. Sean is specifically saying the text should be discussed on-list. ] 3) Trigger: ] Objection: The "trigger" sentence [3] is all kinds of wrong because ] it's promising that the future IETF will update this specification. ] Response: Like any IETF proposal, an RFC that documents the current ] proposal can be changed through the consensus process at any other time. Sean is specifically saying the "trigger" should be discussed on-list. ] After the discussion, some clarifying questions about the hums, and ] typing the hum questions on the screen, there was rough consensus in ] the room to add (aka "shove") the proposed text into ] draft-ietf-rtcweb-video. In keeping with IETF process, I am confirming ] this consensus call on the list. This _is_ calling for consensus. But Sean omitted saying _what_ text; and agreed that the exact text may not have been clear to those in the room. ] If anyone has any other issues that they would like to raise please do ] by December 19th. (And folks have been doing so.) I have asked on-list for the exact text before raising my issues, since my issues relate to the text, not the choosing to have two MTIs. > And this message clearly points to the slides above. I don't find it helpful to attack the people who raise issues. YMMV. But what EKR thinks really doesn't matter. He is not a WGC. -- John Leslie <john@jlc.net>
- [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti codec Sean Turner
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Krasimir D. Kolarov
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Jack Moffitt
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Monty Montgomery
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Nathan Egge
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Cavigioli, Chris
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Nathan Egge
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Gustavo Garcia
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Ron
- [rtcweb] Interop *and* robustness Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Maire Reavy
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Simon Perreault
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Cavigioli, Chris
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Suhas Nandakumar
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Alexandre GOUAILLARD
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Cavigioli, Chris
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Monty Montgomery
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Bo Burman
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… stephane.proust
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Erik Lagerway
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- [rtcweb] WebRTC compatible endpoints (WAS: confir… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] WebRTC compatible endpoints (WAS: co… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] WebRTC compatible endpoints (WAS: co… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] WebRTC compatible endpoints (WAS: co… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] WebRTC compatible endpoints (WAS: co… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was: Re:… Florian Weimer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was:… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] WebRTC compatible endpoints (WAS: co… Randell Jesup
- [rtcweb] WebRTC endpoint categories Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was:… Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was:… Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was:… Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was:… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] WebRTC endpoint categories Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options Florian Weimer
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was:… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options (was:… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] H.264 patent licensing options Richard Barnes
- [rtcweb] What is the judging criteria? (Was: H.26… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] What is the judging criteria? (Was: … Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] What is the judging criteria? (Was: … Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] What is the judging criteria? (Was: … Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] What is the judging criteria? (Was: … cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] WebRTC endpoint categories Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] What is the judging criteria? (Was: … Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Ross Finlayson
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Unhappy People (was: confirming sens… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Sean Turner
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Jonathan Rosenberg
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- [rtcweb] Please change the subject! Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… John Leslie
- [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Sean Turner
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting MTI Cavigioli, Chris
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: [rtcweb] revisiting why WebRTC is succeeding … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] confirming sense of the room: mti co… Iñaki Baz Castillo