Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF

Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Fri, 26 February 2021 16:43 UTC

Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1BAA3A1109 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 08:43:15 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DSVJaSZXB8V3 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 08:43:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A9B73A10DA for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 08:43:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C17A5C00D7 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:43:12 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:43:12 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=1KOtVBo9rNBqemOIcG0N9JAWsdUmr39Do11XpQatL Lc=; b=Ehd8bDsX/gOvfrgUmrUjphPdeNCR9s9bDJ71baWbQ5qXooGcxXyKDmish w8s/7ubKiqS6Mq7YQwmQKy4831fmsLPwX/slQ7/HjcYAmeCF23+v/zweCPMFauDh B3qlHqth9DFdkg7LMlO4jHm/pev2okZ8csp9HwoA+9IGwtcspz+fG3+IBwPnGt1v 9hnbu2Y8nRUvdFBvO2CB8K/sAY6tn/8R1IBhC8HTjSOTHPxd/Kw7hoBVhFlek0gM ewIwizveyOxZjsNqVApCp2QuTUPBFjoqL1GmOMbaLo3z2bVaLRuyZz/j9e4yI1LL xGxpJVzhrueGf3lebMOiWOMnK4vtw==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:ICU5YIADkFpHGI72RJOb6yPgBgi7BwPz0JSOwoA8PXoNDhepaRQVfg> <xme:ICU5YO1oDsrqcyCZApJSYm7kztJpqBRQedDslFAKnUhfLck8rtRfA1d3sZyEbbkE5 mnnnFN17dIW0Q>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrledugdelgecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedtheefgf efgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeefleelueeiffetfeeuudeunecukfhppedutdekrddv vddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:ICU5YKtNeBajZQrW3RWSiwkcHBh4PommU-AcNrouoreGWEU781IQXA> <xmx:ICU5YG6rdjwIhY0_eHQgq9uAF12go3oEHbFe7S4UsVrZIKsVC3ps7A> <xmx:ICU5YDLacf6Y2JJhhSqM7QUzp3rKT8zVMVEBejHg_Xw-iWEDDTYKUQ> <xmx:ICU5YKbXmYC4a0Ujt5S9AQEz2FuDx2WGUNocrJrTcHPt-XhHXN2j0g>
Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id EC7081080054 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:43:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF
To: ietf@ietf.org
References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <LO2P265MB057322BA95B1B44D4175356BC29E9@LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <089096b1-10d2-3eac-d37c-f040a1930061@network-heretics.com> <37142313-C251-40DC-9336-D3A2F0FB69AD@tzi.org> <001d01d70be3$ff0972d0$fd1c5870$@acm.org> <213FBF20-E8BB-40C3-ACAF-40A53731A23C@tzi.org> <c14f77c6-adc0-0d0b-5c17-c25c19e9ce5f@nic.cz> <CAC8QAcfsiCT7AprEdfK5B38jzaANh+2rQiv3k2x=U1MPvTU3Fg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Message-ID: <ff222dfc-ffe8-ca47-0784-7b828bb63577@network-heretics.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:43:11 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CAC8QAcfsiCT7AprEdfK5B38jzaANh+2rQiv3k2x=U1MPvTU3Fg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/1ZKdgrzYHVL9aDgYFjLl_8hrRyc>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 16:43:16 -0000

On 2/26/21 10:48 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:

> I think a lot of people would like to use Word because of wide 
> spread use of MS Office in workplace. It is almost standard there. 
> Appreciating this even Apple comes up with Office for MAC software.
Yes, I'm sure that one of the reasons some people like to use Word is 
that they're already familiar with it from their workplaces.
> I disagree with those who say MS-Word collaboration is not good, that 
> means you don't know Word well :)

You say that like it's a bad thing :)

Also a lot of people don't use Word but use some other WP program that 
claims to support Word format.   In my experience this generally works 
ok for a single conversion, but works really poorly when people using 
different tools try to alternate editing passes, exchanging documents 
back and forth using "Word" format.

I personally detest Word because I've spent so much time fighting it 
when I only wanted it to do very simple things.   Other WYSIWYG tools 
that support Word format seem to be no better and often slightly worse.

But I think IETF should try to let all contributors use the tools that 
they're comfortable with using, and thereby minimize conflicts over 
which tools to use when collaborating.   But we probably can't support 
everything and we should be pragmatic about it.   I suspect that 
"pragmatic" looks something like: (a) let document editors use whatever 
they want for initial drafts, and when there are multiple editors let 
them decide among themselves. (b) Allow internet-draft uploads in a 
reasonable variety of formats (e.g. text, xml2rfc, pdf, maybe html with 
some constraints (the devil is in the details), but in any case 
something that the IETF tools can convert to pdf and ideally plain text 
also).  (c) "final" copies (say, prior to WGLC but maybe earlier if the 
WG wants to use github or something like it) should be in xml2rfc or 
anything else the RFC Series Editor will accept.

(But the sooner the authors/editors try converting to the final format, 
the less likely they'll get bitten by conversion errors late in the 
process.   Late surprises are never fun.)

Keith