Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF

Bron Gondwana <> Tue, 23 February 2021 04:19 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE69D3A2587 for <>; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:19:59 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.097
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.b=kIBdflcG; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.b=VgucW/8a
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nPJLLb8OnKjt for <>; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:19:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ( []) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EDCF3A0CC0 for <>; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:19:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal []) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9E1C5C01F7 for <>; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 23:19:55 -0500 (EST)
Received: from imap7 ([]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 22 Feb 2021 23:19:55 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :references:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=YZ/rBOV Fd9eGZP4dXaQ3sQ6GpZatNpqcnEDlXM0tKT0=; b=kIBdflcGzJ4ijv8NpW4GYSr WBRpcidFIyVWoe7M0YBkB0YXf7Icv+fij8qg7/ssjo1gUFIzuasuCBKEpnlXte2k Rar0lJFudbqPxCsUF9N9Tg7X8pDoUq8PpSNkjFJ3hPLGePSFZDfwWNrN6IQaCzmz H8wOF6WIxOHK3miLhenG0Ew9PrYlM+VO9lqZrR4g3ogkB1wsgQyXxIX4Z8WzMVy2 CGSf/FfLSh/RS7rA1+Aoc8XhKUIaVCyRc+a1HEslT25gItCW1omVh4fcbWQa17NE 6OcHdzwIAdaai3gW7Rh4nTwoDA4YS2Z/U8byhQRSmKUwaVM17LNKszQBdkxx9cA= =
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=YZ/rBO VFd9eGZP4dXaQ3sQ6GpZatNpqcnEDlXM0tKT0=; b=VgucW/8aD7d68dX2DK3l/d uXu+6PlwaZ1/2LsZ0P9FuKYj8v7RJRO7V5U3rHqj7WadPfzC5gpGpYPibF7nneWu 5kgg+dWRlqoxgLKEOtol72HOnQkDcqjlNyDHqICNr9hd+IQpF9V3SMwQo7qP5Q60 QYvnl+HbNwIPsTOtuiZIL/ho3bzo91TLGucjYnnW5HlIvLCSvgvfsnfknscyJkwx Jy9ECvKtAGEOpzjaPNJGjBlvEaRaHTJitEd24CkHMVSvTeyMLsMdBHAMDVUVcjT4 BJfXGaIVMH8lgZjmFDnIXW1TLmwKkfZZcrGH4cwWl46UklC5MfqKruaOODh1lq0A ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:a4I0YK1kvafi73pMehDbc4pqQHBwMh6Eo0FJig9ZSzwuN_cIbCOtfQ> <xme:a4I0YNFnibHraOT8jqosjeKFDpx4iYa19lbv4qP9lz7Gywem6u3A-kmh6kHFO1RIr ybxjexvNGM>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrkeeggdejtdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrgdtre erreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdeurhhonhcuifhonhgufigrnhgrfdcuoegsrhhonhhgsehf rghsthhmrghilhhtvggrmhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffevfeeigfejve etheehleegteelteevgeeutdfhhefghfdtjefhvdehhfdtkefgnecuffhomhgrihhnpehi vghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpegsrhhonhhgsehfrghsthhmrghilhhtvggrmhdrtghomh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:a4I0YC5S0_TVgsGawvdp091kwzvPmPjstqvJDqBerUnI8-Egl4Ndaw> <xmx:a4I0YL29GgU0Y9dfNl70cjfncAM7iEC7s4dU-zw0S8CeYmOzdk00hg> <xmx:a4I0YNFbWj9GS5zfjuK0K2E81c9UfmbJKjKMBa6o6QxTMZ3SBcgRVA> <xmx:a4I0YBTYQs33OkyKGSFI5MYwVXFNV1Q95I4eTmeSGkKtNjVJYx8Xfw>
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 4DE263604E9; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 23:19:55 -0500 (EST)
X-Mailer: Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-141-gf094924a34-fm-20210210.001-gf094924a
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <>
In-Reply-To: <>
References: <>
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 15:19:34 +1100
From: "Bron Gondwana" <>
Subject: Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=b83c7ca317594c33bd3611d231146faa
Archived-At: <>
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 04:20:00 -0000

Thanks Fernando,

I would add to this document something about inertia, backwards compatibility and existing dysfunction.

Many ideas are shut down because they aren't in the right place, or don't fit comfortably into the existing corpus of IETF documents.

When we brought JMAP to the IETF it was after a long process of socialisation, and still there was significant work in the first couple of meetings just to convince people that "this is worth doing, the existing work the IETF has done in this neighborhood is not sufficient".

JMAP also had an authentication scheme in it originally.  It was a good authentication scheme, but applications don't do authentication schemes, that's the bailiwick of OAUTH, where ideas go to die (in my experience, that working group has been dysfunctional for my entire time at IETF - exhibit 'A' being the "Milestones" section of the about page, which lists 6 items all due in 2017)

So we just removed all mention of authentication method and handwaved "the connection will be authenticated", because we wanted to publish something during the decade with years starting '201'.

... all that to say.  One of the biggest barriers to entry in the IETF is stumbling across an area in which no work is able to progress due to entrenched issues within that area.

And I'm not arguing for "no barriers to entry", because there needs to be a sanity check that we're actually producing high quality specifications, and that our specifications are compatible with each other so the entirety of the IETF's work product is a coherent whole.  But it's hard to get started if you don't already have the connections to have your work sponsored by somebody who already knows their way around the IETF's idiosyncrasies.  I'm doing some of that sponsoring myself now for the people from tc39 who are trying to get the IETF to look at defining an extended datetime format.



On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, at 11:07, Fernando Gont wrote:
> Folks,
> We have submitted a new I-D, entitled "Diversity and Inclusiveness in 
> the IETF".
> The I-D is available at: 
> We expect that our document be discussed in the gendispatch wg 
> ( But given the 
> breadth of the topic and possible views, we'll be glad to discuss it
> where necessary/applicable/desired.
> As explicitly noted in our I-D, we're probably only scratching the 
> surface here -- but we believe that our document is probably a good 
> start to discuss many aspects of diversity that deserve discussion.
> Thanks!
> Regards,
> -- 
> Fernando Gont
> SI6 Networks
> e-mail:
> PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492

  Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd