Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Tue, 23 February 2021 21:50 UTC

Return-Path: <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 120413A0CE7; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:50:36 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zy6JrVOAZfbq; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:50:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com (mail-pf1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C83B3A0CE2; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:50:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id c11so9681513pfp.10; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:50:34 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=h958QFpW4MFBOtTRW+xnHuTpoXsrVltYcbDBYVIFnXI=; b=cVGHlgjboreOI1f5pEEDs8YLRbzWWm6UpKM1vE4ckNvDqFSIRgxEbvvFNG/QigDvmB bucJ2vBpzhbqvv/AiliWBRZZQTuxWkHu5jo/kC+KsQWHPgySVjpajGtUG9yQsyzi+MfZ +g5ATf9KboNz+kjWD98K2Cfzcz6iv+MYzmOA93GycdafFSi3k5W0UW0sLacLXKhw6byi 7dcYMdybZfH/dXoP9i8ZFIfVeDPghYlTxDctquwpo9u5yQJLStQOanjQ1/oYS9oD65OB SxZda3lTy5RTFX8JGj3VKhxtqpBB2OhPtQMz6Ivitcw4taKlPKR60jv80Dj9NHo3y+f/ FlJg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=h958QFpW4MFBOtTRW+xnHuTpoXsrVltYcbDBYVIFnXI=; b=bc6lnhoPF0WoZ02EAqrqwRKOWkVvDivpfwCQjHnjQE36kwJsx3kGe81agmzuPK25U3 aY7egbUs9e3DQUuaG5rdpwDBdoIYrCZybYD5sONRJxZihAXVZZWVKN4qmcydyceCIxuw iSMcUUvT/hfsFuK4Yshk5h1/ozVEWWYRr8pjTyeU7Oc9H+DTksRd+JIUYzFQ6GIZm9tx PFqGTSw1txkMU+TANqz8ZtK+vV2hOkez9z4cximWgi0MabH/n6eEiGfSAEHJ8xsSYWDA KPyjjIIFRqxMVyjZoGBAsiymM4/UaV3RKU4VLjPAK640CK5LQaFoFxMYo1SBUgV54DBW 6IDA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531QCmdg5xrr6SiN7KWIGjzNSaKW2492SxBmQcZKiyo1vywxFDJp LlpTpoRBNEuba2Y05D5Yb/4=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzSmlgHi8ZcdnzjzQQoQ55OQNPwaBxGG/7sVuuFMNTKkYeXLI+wM3NfyBhSNjMkKWuId036fQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a63:794:: with SMTP id 142mr25805385pgh.323.1614117033431; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:50:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s138sm136490pfc.135.2021.02.23.13.50.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:50:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>, "'ietf@ietf.org'" <ietf@ietf.org>, GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <AM0PR08MB37168C83CF19A3CDFEF15FD8FA809@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:50:28 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR08MB37168C83CF19A3CDFEF15FD8FA809@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/Nq83mKkw24AHoBUPu4LnijhTnrk>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 21:50:36 -0000

Hannes,

On 23-Feb-21 22:51, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Fernando,
> 
> I just took a quick look at the document and I missed one point that increasingly worries me working in the IETF, namely the increasing number of participants who are not interested to write any code*.

Can you justify "increasing number"? I don't mean compared to 1986, but compared (for example) to 2011? As long as I can remember, people have been concerned about participants who are "goers" rather than "doers" at meetings, and you seem to be adding a further concern, "doers" whose action is to write text rather than write code.

Also, you don't mention operators, whose role is not to write code at all but whose contribution to the IETF is essential. So that's another category of "doers".

I'd like to see some actual facts about these various categories of "doers". What % were they 10 or 20 years ago, and what % are they now? Has the hackathon changed the numbers? Etc.

> I would include this aspect under diversity, particularly when talking about the new leadership election cycles.

Yes, it should be on NomCom's radar. The need for enough ops people has long been understood, but recent development experience is also relevant.

> Participating in some working groups I more and more get the impression to sit in a document writing class rather than in an Internet engineering organization.

Since our principal output is text, that isn't so surprising, but I think there's a case for sending any spec that does not adhere to RFC7942/BCP205 back to the WG.

> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> *: I am also including authors of protocol specifications that do not implement their own specifications.

That's a bit cruel. In larger organisations, it might be totally infeasible. But again, RFC7942 is our friend.

Regards
    Brian
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Fernando Gont
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2021 1:07 AM
> To: 'ietf@ietf.org' <ietf@ietf.org>rg>; GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>rg>; Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
> Subject: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
> 
> Folks,
> 
> We have submitted a new I-D, entitled "Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF".
> 
> The I-D is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00.txt
> 
> We expect that our document be discussed in the gendispatch wg (https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/gendispatch/about/). But given the breadth of the topic and possible views, we'll be glad to discuss it where necessary/applicable/desired.
> 
> As explicitly noted in our I-D, we're probably only scratching the surface here -- but we believe that our document is probably a good start to discuss many aspects of diversity that deserve discussion.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Regards,
> --
> Fernando Gont
> SI6 Networks
> e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
> PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>