coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF)
Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Wed, 24 February 2021 09:46 UTC
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Subject: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF)
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From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
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Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 04:46:26 -0500
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On 2/24/21 3:47 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > [Hannes] I started noticing it after the IETF started the hackathons, > which gave implementers more visibility. In the groups I participate > in, I regularly ask around for volunteers to join the hackathon. Then, > you get an idea who is interested to participate and who isn't. The > hackathons are also a "light" form of coding because you are selecting > a really small specification aspect only. Hence, the bar is pretty low > for entry. At f2f hackathons you also have a number of people joining > who use the event to chat. So, you have to take this into account as > well. I don't recall whether I've been present when you were asking for volunteers, but in general I think it might help attract participants if people know how low the bar is. I've sometimes wondered whether I need to have my own implementation of a protocol in order to participate usefully. I can also say that another reason I've never joined a hackathon is that this would require another couple of nights of travel expense when my funds are often already strained getting to the meetings. (Though it has occasionally occurred to me that attending the hackathon might actually be a better investment than attending WG meetings.) Remote hackathons would reduce the hotel expense but maybe take more time away from paying work. When I've had employer support for attending IETF, I doubt that employer would have wanted to pay for me to attend a hackathon. > Participating in some working groups I more and more get the impression to sit in a document writing class rather than in an Internet engineering organization. >> Since our principal output is text, that isn't so surprising, but I think there's a case for sending any spec that does not adhere to RFC7942/BCP205 back to the WG. > [Hannes] On the surface, it looks like we are producing text. But actually we want much more. We want running code (in the sense of deployed code) and we should expand it to "running secure code". > I think that this is the biggest mental obstacle. If we believe our work is done when the specification is done, then we will fail to reach the full potential of our work. I understand that this message is inconvenient because many participants have difficulties to influence the deployment or even implementations. This is also the cause of a lot of frustration in the IETF work because person A says or writes "I went feature foo." but persons B and C then need to implement 'foo' and then deploy it. Needless to say that persons B and C are less excited about doing the work for person A. IMHO this is the root cause of many conflicts as far as I can see. My impression is that IETF has always been (at least since 1990 which is about when I started) much more about producing specifications than code. Implementation experience was always valued in WG discussions, but implementations were not the main goal or even an explicit goal except as needed for advancement beyond Proposed. Part of this was rooted in experience that interoperability was obtained from clear specifications of "bits on the wire", rather than by either APIs or a reference implementation. But conditions were somewhat different then, because then you had more diverse hardware, (you still had machines with 36-bit words for example), more diversity in operating systems, and it wasn't the case that you could expect the same programming languages to be supported everywhere. (perhaps not even C). I welcome the efforts to attract more developers, as I believed for long time that IETF specifications were becoming a bit distant from implementation realities. So I saw the hackathon and efforts to attract open source developers as corrections that were somewhat overdue. I don't find myself thinking that specification authors or editors need to be developers (IMO other skills are more important to writing a good specification). But it really helps to have some people in the WG and in the conversation who are working on at least prototype or reference implementations. Keith p.s. among other kinds of "doers" whose clue might benefit IETF work, I might suggest people who understand how to make effective configuration and user interfaces. Especially in the area of security but not exclusively so. Ease of configuration and use are some of the important reasons why proprietary solutions succeed over standard solutions. I'm not saying that IETF should specify user interfaces but rather that protocols need to be designed with ease of configuration and use in mind.
- Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Bron Gondwana
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Dominique Lazanski
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dominique Lazanski
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Carsten Bormann
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Bron Gondwana
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Rifaat Shekh-Yusef
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Bron Gondwana
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Stephen Farrell
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Roman Danyliw
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Donald Eastlake
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Carsten Bormann
- Making headway in the IETF [was Diversity and Inc… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Making headway in the IETF [was Diversity and… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Mark Nottingham
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Rifaat Shekh-Yusef
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Mary Barnes
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bill Woodcock
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Tim Bray
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Bron Gondwana
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Jim Fenton
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Building Real Internet Platforms Mark Nottingham
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Larry Masinter
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Jim Manico
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Carsten Bormann
- We appear to still be litigating OAuth, oops Bron Gondwana
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF S Moonesamy
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiveness … Keith Moore
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Carsten Bormann
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Neil Madden
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Aaron Parecki
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Jim Willeke
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Justin Richer
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Aaron Parecki
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Mary Barnes
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Tim Bray
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Christian Huitema
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Michael Richardson
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Phillip Hunt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Michael Thomas
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Michael Thomas
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Christian Hopps
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Jen Linkova
- Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the … Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Christian Huitema
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Seán Kelleher
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Seán Kelleher
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Andrew Campling
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Marc Petit-Huguenin
- document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Joel M. Halpern
- RE: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Larry Masinter
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF S Moonesamy
- RE: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Larry Masinter
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Julian Reschke
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Colin Perkins
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Andrew McConachie
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bill Woodcock
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Justin Richer
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Tim Bray
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Aaron Parecki
- How to tell people... Was: We appear to still be … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: How to tell people... Was: We appear to still… Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Julian Reschke
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- RE: document writing/editing tools used by IETF STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Christian Huitema
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Michael Thomas
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… David Waite
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Aaron Parecki
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF John Levine
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: How to tell people... Was: We appear to still… Michael Richardson
- Re: How to tell people... Was: We appear to still… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF John Levine
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Christian Huitema
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… John Wroclawski
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF John Levine
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bron Gondwana
- HTML for email (was: Re: document writing/editing… Keith Moore
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: HTML for email (was: Re: document writing/edi… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Jeff Craig
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: HTML for email tom petch
- RE: HTML for email Larry Masinter
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Salz, Rich
- RE: document writing/editing tools used by IETF STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: HTML for email Benjamin Kaduk
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- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
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- Re: HTML for email Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: HTML for email Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Phillip Hallam-Baker
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