Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF

Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> Tue, 23 February 2021 10:05 UTC

Return-Path: <cabo@tzi.org>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF0153A120B for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 02:05:58 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lz6kltAbpeHT for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 02:05:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0E7E3A11C0 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 02:05:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DlF753glwzyx1; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 11:05:53 +0100 (CET)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\))
Subject: Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
In-Reply-To: <c946eb86-6c67-0711-eb6b-19aa8173b5be@network-heretics.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 11:05:53 +0100
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 635767553.019258-cf04870d413815a89c14764da3a2082f
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <AB8D4BF4-7624-42AC-BD20-D41C9A4E8AB8@tzi.org>
References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <c946eb86-6c67-0711-eb6b-19aa8173b5be@network-heretics.com>
To: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/eEUOV13CiMpmO7EYqvf5RmLvw9s>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:05:59 -0000

On 2021-02-23, at 05:33, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> wrote:
> 
> And yet, you shouldn't be required to work with any specific person to get around those idiosyncrasies.  

While this is a desirable goal, it also is a lofty one.

The reality in *any* organization is that it is easier to do things for people who know the organization than for those who don’t.  (We have a German word for that, Stallgeruch, which is hard to translate, so I’m not going into more details here.)

The objective can only ever be to make the organization *more* accessible.
I believe finding a shepherd for new work is exactly the right way to approach the IETF, and I applaud Bron for playing this role with datetime-new.

(I found Bron’s telling of the deleterious effects of fashions like “everything must be done in OAuth” refreshing; our work has also been hit by this one, but is now slowly emerging, albeit in a rather damaged way, from ACE.  But avoiding fashions is maybe orthogonal to making the organization more accessible from the outside — fashions damage insiders, too.  It is also not easy to recognize a fashion from a groundswell.)

Grüße, Carsten