Re: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins

[Dan Harkins <[e-mail]>]

   Hi Brian,

On 10/26/22 12:46 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Valery,
>
> I'm not commenting further on the PR action as such. We are a diverse 
> group of people and many here are not native speakers of the language. 
> I suggest that using sarcasm or satire in this group is an ineffective 
> and confusing method. If half the audience takes the sarcasm or the 
> satire seriously, the argument will cancel itself out.

   I have come to that conclusion as well. To some people whose first 
language
is not English it may be hard to discern parody from seriousness and we 
are,
as you note, a diverse group.

   That said, one of the main beefs against me is the two April Fools 
I-Ds I did.
While I admit that there are probably cultures who are present in the 
IETF who
do not participate in or "get" the idea of April Fools, it should be 
noted that
the main people complaining about them-- and erroneously taking them as
serious proposals-- were not from those communities. So I'm pretty sure that
they intentionally dismissed the obvious parody and sarcasm (pranks, in the
spirit of the day) in order to paint me as a racist and a bad person. 
And that
says more about their character than mine.

   Maybe we should just do away with the April Fools document tradition as
well. We haven't have a good one since the Evil Bit (the last one on the
"protocol police" was really lame) and it doesn't seem like humor is part
of the IETF anymore. Sigh.

   regards,

   Dan.

> Regards
>    Brian Carpenter
>
> On 26-Oct-22 20:27, Valery Smyslov wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I do not support this PR action.
>>
>> I read the provided messages and I am not convinced that they justify 
>> the accusation of expressing racism.
>> And while I admit that many of these messages are harsh and sarcastic 
>> and sometimes are on the verge of acceptable
>> (definitely this verge is subjective), it seems to me that the 
>> sarcastic form of these messages was used by the author
>> to make his arguments more expressive. The arguments themselves often 
>> look worth to consider.
>>
>> "Not only is it extremely cruel to persecute in this brief life those 
>> who do not think the way we do,
>> but I do not know if it might be too presumptuous to declare their 
>> eternal damnation."
>>
>> Voltaire, A Treatise on Toleration (1763), translated by Richard Hooker
>>
>> https://brians.wsu.edu/2016/11/04/voltaire-a-treatise-on-toleration-1763/ 
>> (excerpt)
>> or https://earlymoderntexts.com/assets/pdfs/voltaire1763.pdf (full text)
>>
>> Regards,
>> Valery Smyslov.
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: last-call [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of 
>>> IETF Chair
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2022 7:16 PM
>>> To: [e-mail]
>>> Subject: [Last-Call] Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action Against Dan Harkins
>>>
>>> Following community feedback after various incidents, as documented 
>>> below, the
>>> IESG has initiated a posting rights (PR) action that would restrict 
>>> the posting
>>> rights of Dan Harkins, as per the procedures found in BCP 83 (RFC 
>>> 3683).
>>> Specifically, his posting privileges to these lists would be suspended:
>>>
>>> * admin-discuss
>>> * gendispatch
>>> * ietf
>>> * terminology
>>>
>>> In the IESG's opinion, this individual has a history of sending 
>>> emails that are
>>> inconsistent with the IETF Guidelines for Conduct (RFC 7154) and 
>>> thereby
>>> "disrupt the consensus-driven process" (RFC 3683). Among these are 
>>> contributions
>>> that:
>>>
>>> * Express racism in the form of denying, belittling, and ridiculing 
>>> anti-racist
>>>    sentiment and efforts
>>>
>>> * Are rude and abusive, and often amount to insulting ridicule
>>>
>>> (Links to examples of such emails sent to the lists above during the 
>>> last two
>>> years are provided at the end of this email.)
>>>
>>> Multiple attempts have been made to enter into a private discussion 
>>> with this
>>> individual, both by IESG and community members, to communicate 
>>> disquiet with his
>>> conduct on the lists. These attempts to restore respectful and 
>>> courteous conduct
>>> on the lists have been rebuffed with communication that can be 
>>> considered both
>>> antagonistic and hostile, and the pattern of behavior observed has 
>>> continued.
>>>
>>> The IESG also notes that the following actions have already been 
>>> taken in
>>> response to the individual's actions:
>>>
>>> * Two I-Ds were removed from the public archive due to their 
>>> offensive nature:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-les-white-intersectional-dots
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-les-white-tls-preferred-pronouns
>>>    (following these links displays the tombstone notice explaining 
>>> their removal)
>>>
>>> * His posting rights were restricted on the admin-discuss mailing list:
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/admin-discuss/ZANH2VPN-U8VMvvOWLb5l03FdCs/
>>>
>>> * A final public warning was issued on the gendispatch mailing list:
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/68a4amMa1aiaRUPzPGgXdiY9gHg/
>>>
>>> None of the attempts to discuss his participation style or warn the 
>>> individual
>>> have led to any improvements. The IESG therefore believes that a PR 
>>> action is
>>> the correct response to his continued problematic behavior across a 
>>> number of
>>> different lists.
>>>
>>> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and 
>>> solicits final
>>> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
>>> [e-mail] mailing lists by 27 October 2022. Exceptionally, 
>>> comments may
>>> be sent to [e-mail] instead. If sending private feedback to the 
>>> IESG,
>>> please indicate if you would be open to having your comments 
>>> anonymized and
>>> shared in a summary.
>>>
>>> Please note: Comments should be limited to the criteria described in 
>>> BCP 83,
>>> notably on whether the individual in question has engaged in 
>>> postings that are
>>> "unprofessional commentary, regardless of the general subject" in a 
>>> manner
>>> disruptive enough to warrant this action.
>>>
>>> Lars Eggert
>>> IETF Chair, on behalf of the IESG
>>> –-
>>>
>>> Examples of problematic emails during the last two years include:
>>>
>>> * 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/zdq3F0PV40Cyw5ooj0orOWaYyUw/
>>> * 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/i-d7HlWgrkmrVlC7JZQSXDwIJCQ/
>>> * 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/YhPI9zZ_3xfidt5V-ORRnET36yY/
>>> * 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/B33zk8VfOYt4b4Cj-kIHXG3AXdg/
>>> * 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/d3iDS4WNkCJA3aMFnX2HjP4tsps/
>>> * 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/-On8AHrdnnCMlJOOyb1M1nlYMpk/
>>> * 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/n6UMvDuYLKmmvpP1ajICFvf634M/
>>> * 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/QCdjDbokmlARcwVqQ1TV3Rlz7eQ/
>>> * 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/X6OF0MBKAzyLhYaAfAxS6srXRNw/
>>> * 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/idJhG1MsLmKHyRlaAafcW2JF6Z8/
>>> * 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipsec/LoGSVatZ4EsYRq4K52rmvRZTndk/ 
>>>
>>> * 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/pl2lVqhtF4Z-0YuTjhCOmdyi1qE/
>>> * 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/DFgnF_j8py_eMBGI1IUFdMahTKw/
>>> * 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/T3oCpY3BbTNLXWAWsCnFvahRLUQ/
>>> * 
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/admin-discuss/xLuz4WTCm5ibIiMVN5ID8OWsCI0/
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> last-call mailing list
>>> [e-mail]
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call
>>

-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius