IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: USA dominion: Re: IESG Statement On Oppressive or Exclusionary Language

Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com> Sun, 26 July 2020 00:47 UTC

Return-Path: <brong@fastmailteam.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 386923A041A for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 17:47:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.119
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmailteam.com header.b=T+cSW5TF; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=IaiUxGCy
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ynau3uA7MgWG for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 17:47:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B86813A040F for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 17:47:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE9B449D for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 20:47:41 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from imap7 ([10.202.2.57]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 25 Jul 2020 20:47:41 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= fastmailteam.com; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :references:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=58QfPtm S2KAlmE9KJxVoDFWgic1lvA5lGFTl4DBsuzI=; b=T+cSW5TFELMAsmq+rp1BnAn zf1zZ/+K3f2OAU4Fuuof18fE0L92ObGJtPk1moFI6oPulnw4mdH3yoDvRz3ednYc Y74IfPCD1LN/LoJgV49winr8CnTQhvFdHb6Qm4knbImOpVf8G7RW5s0xzC9q6Li6 AG8fX2glrJpjOUpYYBi6jGYq0rzrnSu88wEIB0c7QyGax6a3ZZ2ahjfU7QDNhBcN 1hrzEyfv3nANkLDbk4EO3nzcoTHclrOXiWGXbc0ofeLqPOIm8VGbOV26hTpF+WqA xZ+7YlkWA7KR8q/FrDAsDYVh8oGNXJPhcWuZ0kqKeHNNn3vegCpZy80W147skTw= =
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=58QfPt mS2KAlmE9KJxVoDFWgic1lvA5lGFTl4DBsuzI=; b=IaiUxGCytdUQPYyc6QN5t6 2zkt728qq7cncMaKtpK13/cwFyTj7/BkXT2+KikMfQ7oVPRPYj+qIG32oObrxPvP 4VQ26Cz023hLCILJNyO3IWN83cHi7VC21lGPVBmiOXGbieODka5jwq8PhB1HbTU+ Xeli1A9v5lCGbhfXcxI89+xuPlphprByV2mdHlibYHmcCIyNs4jULuQnbeJHulkK thTuPo+ySlEpVrBXP2rJjnJIHm8LTNHfyajSZAVV1+s6QmjsaxbzW3nKwfYtHPxG woKWhOp0a19jYbR2A5rlgBi3fXmnlRR+idApP1DfEG1FHrQWCiLbbi5kXzYjeciA ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:rdIcX_zpbyDMrOUB8nW5IGf4ux4ZDpuOC89ZgUrIa95GpOgPNadkTg>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrheeigdefiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrgdtre erreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdeurhhonhcuifhonhgufigrnhgrfdcuoegsrhhonhhgsehf rghsthhmrghilhhtvggrmhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnheptdehteegfeevte duffevteehfffghefhvdevkeeuhfehueetudehgfegieekjeetnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepsghrohhnghesfhgrshhtmhgrih hlthgvrghmrdgtohhm
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:rdIcX3QkJeChx_vNO4fVgWgU33g0ZLzLoM0vPNwVtFzSG_vN-4s2jQ> <xmx:rdIcX5UV4fjsuNCqUCmDe05-Ha1hldXAPCnKnYqJNDferfafpyTmLA> <xmx:rdIcX5h6eZHxk36mHkD3wd8ewGBSB00Ln-TpoPDY1qnieNUAMYNLSg> <xmx:rdIcX9w23IK8HJFIWNT3T_OjP7mdhaKLGkBrW15SJbfzTQwCWni1BA>
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 15D47180454; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 20:47:41 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-92-g11c785d-fm-20200721.004-g11c785d5
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a411c992-5b25-464c-934f-67a9fc8d5f2b@dogfood.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <3413df19-80d1-3c74-45d4-5ae6549d2b54@meetinghouse.net>
References: <8654FB0C-A434-4BC7-A79B-BB78AD88C769@akamai.com> <18C9B109-AEA0-404A-9FCF-B7822BA4BC22@nohats.ca> <578A89AE-C916-41FA-A38E-9B35E4967135@akamai.com> <3413df19-80d1-3c74-45d4-5ae6549d2b54@meetinghouse.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:47:20 +1000
From: Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com>
To: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: USA dominion: Re: IESG Statement On Oppressive or Exclusionary Language
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="46bcf79c32e341189c08ea11deacc4b0"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/N1CSBx8LqHlmE4nsFQquYVkUJfI>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:47:44 -0000

On Sun, Jul 26, 2020, at 02:33, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> On 7/25/20 12:24 PM, Salz, Rich wrote:

>> Paul,

>>  

>> Thanks for the info and the history lesson.

>>  

>> I will learn how to spell “Colleagues” :)

> Of course "colleague" has it's own problems - it implies that one assumes that all of one's addressees have opinions of equal worth.  For some, that's an expression of respect.  For others, it's kowtowing to Dunning-Kruger syndrome.  And some might take "Dear Colleague" as a sarcastic insult.

> You really can't win with this stuff.  Someone will always object to something.  Personally, I'm still good with old-fashioned knock-down, drag-out, technical exchange - the hell with the language & people's feelings.  Good engineering is good engineering, bad engineering is bad engineering.  All the rest is navel-gazing.


We can't even use "bipeds" because it's insulting to people who have lost a leg or are otherwise incapable of bipedal motor function.  (reminds me of the joke about the hick loudly asserting that he ain't no homosapien, he's a hetrosapien)

"Dear bikeshedders,"

Thankfully, words like "folks" or "colleagues" are rarely going to make their way into RFC text itself, because there's almost always a more specific class of person or entity that will be referenced by their role in any protocol or interaction that the RFC describes.

Bron.

--
  Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmailteam.com

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email