Re: IESG Statement On Oppressive or Exclusionary Language

[Ted Hardie <[e-mail]>]

Howdy,

On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 10:36 AM Michael StJohns <[e-mail]>
wrote:

> Hi -
>
> I support the general goals you've stated below, but I have a few problems
> with how you're (IESG) suggesting we approach them.  Two in particular:
>
> 1) The onus for implementing whatever we end up deciding will be on the
> RFC Editor and the RPC - that argues that the primary driver of the
> language effort should be rooted over on the rfc-interest mailing list, and
> driven by the RSE (or the temporary equivalent) and not as part of the
> general area.  I'm not sure why this even needs to run past Dispatch?
>
>
For what it's worth, I disagree with this.  The primary mode of
implementation here for new work will be a change in community practice,
not a set of changes implemented at the end of the process by the RSE or
RPC.  It also seems to clear to me that it would be valuable for the other
streams to consider the same issues, but I don't believe that changing the
IETF's practice requires the consensus of the other streams to change.

To put this in a slightly different way, we're better off if alternatives
to terms like master/slave are considered and adopted by the working groups
who are building the technologies than if the alternatives are brought
forward only after the work is done.

As a result, I believe BCP and IETF processing is appropriate here, even if
the other streams adopt similar conventions.  It may still happen that
there are issues flagged late, but I'm guessing it would be at IESG review
rather than at the RPC exceptional circumstances.

regards,

Ted Hardie


> 2) I'm not enamored of the document [1] for a number of reasons:
>
>    - At least three of the sources  (BrodieGravesGraves, Burgest, Eglash)
>    are  behind paywalls making it difficult for anyone besides the authors to
>    do a meaningful review
>    - other sources appear to be paper only - at least there are no
>    on-line references
>    - there are few peer-reviewed scholarly papers referenced - it would
>    be helpful to have more to strengthen any arguments rather than depending
>    on popular press opinion pieces (Grewal, Jansens, McClelland)
>    - because X, Y and Z did it isn't a great set of arguments for why we
>    should do it (e.g, Drupal, Github, etc)
>    - If we're going to get into this, we need to also address "master" as
>    a stand-alone term, not simply in the context of "master/slave" - e.g.
>    "master copy", "mastering a recording", "zone master file", "mastering a
>    skill", "master controller".  I'd *really* like to not have to do this
>    multiple times because we lacked imagination or completeness.
>    - the list of master/slave alternatives within the document doesn't
>    really deal with the "controlling entity/controlled entity" pattern.
>
> Later, Mike
>
> On 7/23/2020 12:35 PM, The IESG wrote:
>
> The IESG believes the use of oppressive or exclusionary language is
> harmful.  Such terminology is present in some IETF documents, including
> standards-track RFCs, and has been for many years. It is at odds with
> our objective of creating an inclusive and respectful environment in the
> IETF, and among readers of our documents.
>
> The IESG realizes that the views of the community about this topic are
> not uniform. Determining an actionable policy regarding problematic
> language is an ongoing process. We wanted to highlight that initial
> discussions about this topic are taking place in the general area (a
> draft [1] is slated for discussion in GENDISPATCH [2] at IETF 108).
> Updating terminology in previously published RFCs is a complex endeavor,
> while making adjustments in the language used in our documents in the
> future should be more straightforward.
>
> The IESG looks forward to hearing more from the community, engaging in
> those discussions, and helping to develop a framework for handling this
> issue going forward.
>
> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-knodel-terminology/
> [2] https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/agenda/agenda-108-gendispatch-03
>
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