Re: IESG Statement On Oppressive or Exclusionary Language

Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> Sun, 09 August 2020 16:52 UTC

Return-Path: <cabo@tzi.org>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622753A0D55 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 09:52:22 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bq7McsZO6RFI for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 09:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DA943A0D50 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 09:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [172.16.42.101] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BPlWN4hrCzydN; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:52:16 +0200 (CEST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\))
Subject: Re: IESG Statement On Oppressive or Exclusionary Language
From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
In-Reply-To: <aa4292e-79a6-3df4-9bc3-18558ba2c190@taugh.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 18:52:14 +0200
Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, IETF general list <ietf@ietf.org>
X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 618684734.7454489-38ffec857f80a7070ea2d248516dfc70
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <6AC5DDA2-2C4E-4B74-B4F3-6B9E94D198B5@tzi.org>
References: <20200809151507.C3DCB1E74E58@ary.local> <5427551B-0521-4CA3-AF8C-9A74961E852E@gmail.com> <aa4292e-79a6-3df4-9bc3-18558ba2c190@taugh.com>
To: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/_gTP2OufnoXxFIHCb3ncTcSBeLk>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 16:52:23 -0000

On 2020-08-09, at 18:28, John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> 
> This is a problem that the IETF really needs to solve itself.

While I agree with that, I also think there might be some help out there that we might avail ourselves of — maybe not so much in other SDOs, but in professional organizations such as ACM.

I just know some of us (me included) can’t help with this, for the same reasons that Baudis gives for his choice of the term “master” for the main Git branch in 2005 [1].  It’s your language, and those of us who have acquired very different connotations for terms (through the technical context they learned the language in, and through different connotations of the equivalent word in their native languages) will need some guidance.  So I’m very skeptical with throwing back the ball to the authors.

Grüße, Carsten

[1]: https://www.wired.com/story/tech-confronts-use-labels-master-slave